Damp issues

[Brian M]

From: Fento3 (Original Message) Sent: 07/03/2005 01:41
Hi,
I have just acquired a 1972 ford granada that came with a 1972/74 safari 4 berth van. I am trying to find out how much the van is worth as I already have a van and have no need for this van can anyone help the van is in reasonable cond.

thanks in advance



From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 07/03/2005 23:23
Lynn & Paul,

Delighted to hear you are now thinking of keeping your Safari. If is in reasonable condition (or can be brought back to reasonable condition) these 'vans are real gems.

Brian's description of the upper berth on the 15/4 tallies with my rather vague recollection of the arrangement on the rather earlier 15/4 that my brother owned at one time, so with two 'vans having similar arrangements it may well have been authentic. At any rate, even starting from scratch if there is physically room for an upper bunk it is a very simple matter to arrange a means of supporting it which will be structurally sound, although if the original design can be ascertained that is obviously the best route.

In view of the age of yours, and the fact that the upper bunk has clearly not been used for some time, it would be worth checking the strength of the structure where the support brackets are secured; if screws are insecure, especially if they have pulled out in the past, or if there is other damage (or, worse, rot) you may have to be prepared to fit a spreader pad, or otherwise provide additional support.

If for any reason these brackets are unsafe and cannot reasonmably be repaired, an alternative approach (used on my late Eccles Coronation, amongst other 'vans) is a pair of 2" x 1" hardwood struts, hinged to the upper bunk base (or horizontal rail in your case) so that they fold away when the bunk is stowed, but when the bunk is erected they stand vertically underneath this horizontal rail, supported on the solid base of the lower bunk, and are then located by a small dowel and hole arrangement. You would also then need a horizontal spacer at each end. Not authentic Safari, but worth bearing in mind as a structurally sound alternative if need be.

Damp at the front window: if this really is chipboard be aware that it it is non-original. The original framing was hardwood throughout (which is why they last so well, but also why they are so heavy ... ); I believe the wood was obeche, but any hardwood would do the job well, although preferably one of the lighter ones. Interior panelling was then plywood - I think 3 mm but am open to correction on this - covered by a wallpaper (a vinyl paper?) on top of the plywood.

Good luck; and don't give up - I am sure that between us all we can provide the necessary expertise.



Oliver



From: Fento3 Sent: 07/03/2005 23:38
I have just been corrected by Paul for putting the wrong wood down. So the wood that has gone is the ply-wood, it has not spread further than the ply thankfully. Ours is like a white shiny vinyl paper. Did the glasses come with every van or did you buy them seperately?? I am just curious now.

Thankyou for the info Oliver and Brian it is very much appreciated.


Lynn and Paul



From: nimueandme Sent: 07/03/2005 23:44
hi,dont know if you remember me but we had a safari 13/4 which we exchanged with two otrher members Paul and Deb for their van which was not a safari, anyway the point is they now have a safari which is a four berth and has the origanal brackets ect for the bunk bed which goes over the single bed ,making the fourth berth. I do not know if yours still has these or if it ever had them, If it is the same type of bunk that belongs in your van Paul would be able to supply you with pictures.Also there should be poles for bunk which are stored in a compartment which looks like a skirting board behind the sinlge seats... I am sure their are probably different types of beds but I thought this might help

good luck with your restoration
nimueandme





From: Fento3 Sent: 08/03/2005 00:00
It's me again. Nimueandme how can I say but here goes THANKYOU THANKYOU THANKYOU we now have a 4 berth safari with all parts and a estimated 1 day damp repair job.

The bunk was exactly where you said it was.


Lynn and Paul



From: nimueandme Sent: 08/03/2005 00:16
hi, your very welcome,Paul and Deb who now own our safari are members and also had damp problems at the front of van so I am sure he will be able to offer advice if you need any as he had to do some extensive work on the roof , they are 'DOWNTOWN 1071s'
bye for now
nimueandme



From: Fento3 Sent: 08/03/2005 00:34
We are lucky as the roof so far is fine it seems to be only at the window front on either side unless we find something else when we start repairing it. Do you need to use vinyl paper in the van or does anyone have any other ideas for papering the van.
Our main project is going to be fitting an electric hook up to the van as it has no hook up on it. We are now definitely thinking about keeping it, the only other prob is what to do our other van till we decide what to do lol.

Lynn and Paul

ps Thankyou all so much for your help it was very much appreciated


From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 08/03/2005 18:57


If you do decide to have the cushions recovered it is worth considering having new foam at the same time, at least for the ones that you sit on during the day. When I had mine done on my 1978 'van it made an enormous difference to daytime comfort, for not much extra cost; I am now debating when to have the same job done on the 1980 'van.

If you do consider that, be aware that there is a choice of density of foam; ask to try samples of each to sit on, so that you can make an informed choice as to what you personally find most comfortable.

Good luck with your new acquisition,


Oliver



From: Fento3 Sent: 08/03/2005 20:10
Thanks for info Oliver will bear that in mind. Have just uploaded some photo's that I took of it on me phone today. Let me know what you think. Are the glasses the originals they have safari on them near the bottom of each glass.

thanks

Lynn and Paul



From: Brian Sent: 08/03/2005 22:58
Lynn & Paul

If you look in the picture section in June 2004 we posted pictures of the glasses that we have found so far.

It seems all Safaris left the factory with 12 glasses, six of two sizes, but for these to still be with the caravan is now the exception.

I firmly believe that the factory bought in any old sizes they could find, got them engraved and the next time got a completely different style!

And as some members have already proved, wine does taste nicer when put in a Safari glass!

Brian Miller



From: Fento3 Sent: 17/03/2005 23:01
Just a quick update. Here goes, we have now taken the ply wood off both sides of front window, the left hand side seems ok damp only got to the ply wood here, but the right hand side of window is bad it's gone through to the hard wood underneath the window, behind the seating area and under the seating area. After this we gave up with it, so we have now put on hold selling the newer van as we think (almost certainly) that the safari might be getting sold on for spares or repair. When we have decided what we are doing we will let u all know. It was too good to be true.


Lynn and Paul.



From: Fento3 Sent: 17/03/2005 23:03
sorry got me sides wrong it's the left side that's bad not right side as stated

lynn and paul



From: nimueandme Sent: 20/03/2005 00:25
hi,sorry to hear your damp problem is worse than you first thought. As I mentioned before we swapped our safari for an ABI, and it had damp problems in the area you seem to have. Dennis just dismantled the van like a mechano set and repaired it .Took out seats,bases ect ,pulled all damp plywood off,awful smell,replaced lot of main timbers as they were rotten and it stood for weeks drying out . Then he replaced plywood and I papered it,he put seat bases in and it is great now.We also did the same at the other end of van as damp had gotten everywhere due to leak behind wash basin, Wall all along back at bottom and floor in bathroom area and main timber frame. One cup of water can travel 4 mile it seems and cause major damage.Anyway if you look at Downtowns pictures you will see he had same trouble with safari and had to replace main timber as well, it all depends on how much you want to keep your safari, our damp came from a hole some-one had put in for arial cable,so you would first need to find out where problem starts,Damp is not always the end of the vans life, anyway good luck if you decide to keep it
nimueandme



From: Downton1071s Sent: 20/03/2005 11:23
Hello Lynn & Paul,sorry dont get online much these days.Regarding your Safari,the work we have done so far has given us insight into what a sturdy reliable caravan they are.At first when we started the work on the roof we sat with our head in our hands,but with a little thought and a trip to good old Focus DIY down the road the job is not as bad as it seems.I am a mechanic by trade and no DIY expert but these vans lend themselves to repair work.The worst part is like Gloria & Dennis have pointed out,stripping and looking at the damage,once you start to replace the rotten wood it all comes together rather well.The ABI in my opinion would have been harder to repair than the Safari,but they have proved that with a little commitment it can be done.I have not had time to read all of you details so if you would like to send me your email I am happy to send you pics,info etc.I will also give you our phone number so you can ring and chat to give me a better mental pic of the damage.Damp is always going to be a problem on a van of this age and design,but with modern sealants etc and a spare weekend it is possible to keep them dry and mold free.I love classic cars and we have a 1975 244 Volvo to tow ours with so your granada & safari would look great together.If you are not to far from us I would be willing to take a trip up and have a look at it with you,my brother in law is a carpenter so we should be able to come up with something.Anyway mail me on our new mail addy which is [e-mail] and I will get back to you.Good luck Paul & Deb


From: Fento3 Sent: 23/03/2005 20:50
just put some new photos in album. this is the damage we found.

lynn n paul

[Brian M]

From: Jan_Gareth1 (Original Message) Sent: 25/04/2005 12:42
We currently own and have made good use of a 1979 safari.
Having the van checked at local caravan dealer we discovered damp has penetrated the front of the van into the van by about a metre and half on each side.

Has anyone got experience fixing this kind of problem?
I have not repaired any panels before so i am a complete novice. Even if i can,t do the work it would be good to hear of like minded repairs if any of you have experiences to share.




From: Brian Sent: 25/04/2005 19:37
Jan & Gareth

Snap!!

I was checking mine yesterday prior to my trip to France next week and noticed the wallpaper either side of the front window was lifting. I started to do what I have done in a couple of other spots where the wallpaper was coming away at the edges (a squirt of "No More Nails") and realised that the wood panel behind was a horrible dark brown colour. Yes the dreaded damp has crept in.

Inspection underneath the window cill shows that it has not got down into the area below the window line, nor does it seem to have affected the side window frames yet. I haven't the time to sort it before I go but on my return will take the plywood off and see what is behind it.

I'll take plenty of pictures for the benefit of other members and hope that it is repairable.

Brian Miller



From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 25/04/2005 21:04
I have kept out of this because certain other members have far more experience in this sort of repair than I have, but there is a lot of useful experience in the group, and some inspiring "before and after" photographs have been published of this sort of repair and restoration.

It is a substantial job, but is certainly possible.



Oliver




From: Downton1071s Sent: 26/04/2005 10:13
Hi , has the van been checked with a damp meter or is there visual signs of damp ( that green substance you tend to find in your coffee mug when you have left it in the garage a week or two) ? If the latter is the one then DONT PANIC.....check out the pics from our folder,Downton1071s as we had damp in the front of our van.All the materials for our repairs came from DIY stores,so not expensive and the other must is patience.The main spars in the front of the roof section had gone in ours,across the front and about halfway along the side windows.Once you have taken the paneling off to see the damage,let the van dry out for a day or two as once the damp is exposed the timbers can look worse than they are until dry.Once you have achieved this then remove damaged sections as carfully as possible,the more intact the section is when you remove it the better as this forms a template for measuring and making the new piece.When they are removed it is also easier to see where the damp has got in,that too can be repaired.The roof had got two puncture hole on the roof over the L/H spar and was not visible from outside,once exposed and cleaned off I used a product called liquid Metal ,again available from focus etc,to seal the hole ,then smooth down and then replace the spars.Its difficult to address all the things to do in one mail ,if Brian has work to do on his van then as he has suggested follow the pics and info he will put on the site and then the rest of us are only a click away if you need anymore help.Please ignore my recent delve into the world of Emmerdale and my Turbo 240 idea,today you are communicating with my sane side....Regards Paul

PS Nimueandme (Gloria & Dennis) have had experience with repairs like this on their new van (our old one not a Safari) and I am sure that they would give any advice they can.They are still members here and can be reached via the messages....




From: Brian Sent: 28/04/2005 08:14
I was talking to the other Gareth (Pearman Briggs) last night who gave me the best advice from a professional caravan repairer concerning damp repairs.

BEFORE YOU START RIPPING OUT ANY DAMP PANELS AND FRAMEWORK - FIND OUT WHERE THE WATER CAME FROM AND STOP ANY MORE GETTING IN

Obvious really when pointed out, but I was about to rip out the damaged bits and thought I would then find the point of ingress and fix it afterwards.

So this is the sequence the professionals use:

Using a damp meter (available for under a tenner from DIY stores) check in all directions from the wet bit.
Readings of up to 10% will be found anywhere - even on a brand new caravan! Anything above 15% and the area needs replacing.
So move the meter away from the worst bit, and watch the reading go down in most directions, but it will increase in one, and the source will probably be obvious.
Most often it is a junction of panel, window seals, drip rail, awning rail etc. Remove the cover strip, reseal with a caravan mastic. (Don't use domestic mastic as these may go hard with age, caravan mastic retains a bit of flexibility) In more severe cases, oxidisation of the aluminium may have created pin prick holes in a panel - there is a product called Sikoflex (I think that is how it is spelt) that will seal these small holes.
Only when you are confident the source "hole" is sealed should you start to remove the damp bits.
BE BRUTAL in removing any panel or framework, go well past the obviously damp bits to good dry areas before starting to replace.
Replacement of panels and framework only requires reasonable DIY skills.
Use a hard wood for framework, brass or stainless steel screws, a woodworking glue, and plenty of sealant.
And please take lots of pictures and post them to the gallery so we can all see what we can expect behind the panels!

Gareth has just moved home and so is not on line at the moment, but is happy to answer any queries, but there might be a delay before he responds. If you want to email him, send enquiries to me and I will pass them on.

Brian Miller






From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 28/04/2005 18:08
Obviously excellent advice.

One detail that may be of help to others; stainless steel fastenings are sometimes difficult to source from caravan or DIY sources, and if they are found at all there is likely to be a very limited range of sizes and types. However they are routinely stocked, and in a much wider range, by boat and yacht chandlers.

That apart, with nearly 800 messages already on the General board - and with the number growing continually - I wonder how in the future we can best handle the ever-increasing quantity of technical information already posted.

Is it perhaps time to establish (yet) another message board, specifically for repair and maintenance issues, or perhaps for technical issues more generally?

And/or is it technically feasible to establish some sort of index, to aid members in looking up previous discussions on specific problems.

Alternatively is it possible to collate the most informative messages on a particular topic into a combined document, expandable as more information is supplied by members, to then be uploaded in the Documents section?



Oliver




From: Scaniadriver72 Sent: 01/05/2005 13:22
Hi Jan & Gareth
Sorry to hear of your Damp problems with your Safari. Ours has been OK so far but when I got it I sealed all the roof wood strips and the metal jionts with sealer.My old Elddis had problems with the front grab handles coming loose.I thought all I needed was to put bigger fixing screws in ,but the wood behind was all rotten.I got some panels nearly the same as the older one(it was wood effect) but Safaris have wall paper so the inside is not a problem to match.I opened the front left side panel up,then measured the wood size and angle then cut new wood,for insidethe panel.It sounds complicated but if you have the time and the patience things can be achieved.I think your first job is to decide if the damp can be sorted or is it out of hand and beyond fixing.Please feel fee to ask any more Questions,if we can help we will.
Regards Brian,Mairi & David
Ps just e-mail us direct if you want jan (its in our profile)




From: Jan_Gareth1 Sent: 05/05/2005 13:04
Thank you the advice it is very much appeciated and yes i will take the before and stage by stage photos as i progress.

The mechanic at the caravan dealer locally tested with the damp meter so i could see the extent of the damage at the moment i have attached a waterproof sheet to the front of the van to stop water getting in perhaps that would be a good photo to begin with. I will take a photo after i place my vote tonight

[Brian M]

Hi,
My 12/2 is always stored undercover, and does not seem to have any apparent signs of damp inside, even when checking the usual places , corners, under windows etc. How do I kkep it that way? I suppose the only immediate answer that comes to mind is have the panel seals regularly done. If anybody has any experience of this, or knows of costs etc, I would be grateful for any info. Perhaps this is even a DIY job, if so any gen on how complicated, tips etc would be welcome .
Thanks. Pete




From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 19/04/2006 17:20
Pete,

My recently acquired 12/2 is also dry inside with no water ingress and I note that all the roof and gutter seems have been mastic sealed sometime ago. I also noted the front window has been out and resealed and I suspect this is an area where water can get. When the caravan is towed at say 60 mph in rain then you can imagine the air and water pressure against the front seal and window.

If you are going to seal the gutters and joints then invest in some 1"masking tape leaving about 3mm gap either side of the joint, squeeze the mastic along the joint then with a wetted finger run it along the seal. Finnally before the mastic dries remove the masking tape and you will have a neat job.

Alas my 12/2 has been mastic sealed with a trowel and a 2" brush so whilst its kept the water out it looks a bloody mess.

Regards

Mike



From: Brian Sent: 19/04/2006 17:57
A question for all - do you HAVE to remove the screws and lift the metal capping before resealing or does Mike's suggestion of squeezing a bit more mastic in along the joint work?

Could save me a lot of work in the next few weeks.

Also picking up on Mikes comment about water ingress into the front at speed, remember when sealing the window to also check the front running lights. On mine there was a lot of ingress through the screw and wire holes. The new ones will be going on in a bed of mastic.

Brian Miller




From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 19/04/2006 17:58
Pete,

Forgot to add, do not get to hung up about sealing the polished body side alloy strips of which only one covers the joint between the upper side panel and lower side panel, the other being decorative.

The upper panel overlaps the lower panel by some 5" and on the two recent SAFARI`s I have dismantled there was no water ingress at that point.

Mike




From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 19/04/2006 18:04
Brian,

You will be lucky to remove the screws as either the heads drop off or the phillips cross head has corroded and you cannot get the screw driver to bite. My suggestion is to leave everything intact and squeeze the new mastic in to the joint.

Last year I looked at a very nice restored 14/2 but what shouted at me was the guttering and edge moulding where someone had done just that, it had a quilted effect and was covered in extra screws.

Mastic Mike




From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 19/04/2006 18:31
Having not yet had to do this job myself, but with a damp problem now found on my van, I am watching this correspondence with great interest, picking up the different view of those who have either done it or are in the process of doing so.

I shall have to either do mine or pay Harringtons to do it, neither of which is a particularly pleasant prospect... These days I prefer to pay a professional to do the bigger jobs, but being part-time self-employed in my retirement - and with a large degree of control over how much work I do - I am not quite in the same position as someone on a fixed salary; I can if I wish put in a few extra hours of my own professional work and use the earnings from that to pay for a dealer to repair the caravan.

For what it is worth, my experience of the equivalent job on boats is that taking the beading right off and cleaning everything up and then bedding it down again on fresh mastic is the professional way, and by far the more durable way - but the surplus mastic does then need cleaning up as part of the job, and that means doing it before it has cured.

Mike's method sounds very attractive, and particularly for an emergency temporary repair, but I suspect it may prove to be just that and may need to be re-done periodically. It would be very interesting to know how long it lasts in practice.

The term "mastic" of course covers a multitude of products, and I would be tempted to use silicone sealant for this job. This however reminds me of a unique mastic product that I used on yachts, particularly for underwater jobs. Called "Life-Caulk", and in the Boatlife range of products, is is a seriously adhesive barium-based mastic, and its properties are superbly indicated in the instructions for use, which may be summarised as:
Preferably apply to and use between clean dry surfaces

If necessary use on wet surfaces

In emergency can even be applied under water.
I do not however think that our caravans call for quite such a phenomenal material, and if any of it lands where it is not wanted it can be immensely stubborn at resisting removal.





Oliver



From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 19/04/2006 22:29
Oliver,

I would suggest that my method is not just a temporary repair but part of a long term maintenance task. I see no point in disturbing lap joints from initial build, all that is required is to rejuvinate the seam edge periodically.

Going back to my day`s in aviation, fuselage panel joints etc were never disturbed but visible seams along the panel joints were attended as and when required. Believe you me nothing ever goes back as good as when it was built not even in aviation.

There is a product that goes back to the 1950`s called SEELASTIK and is still available from TOWSURE finish is white and can be overpainted. It was used extensively by the car industry pariticularly STANDARD TRIUMPH and was good stuff and adhered well to the metal.

My 13/4 has been panel seam sealed with an aviation product called THIOKOL 1422B2 now that is the best and etches into the painted metal surface and sticks like the proverbial. Alas I can no longer pick up part used tins from the hangar bin so it will be SEELASTIK for me in the future.

Regards

Mike




From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 20/04/2006 13:47
Mike,

I like the concept and I am very tempted to do it your way at this stage and then evaluate how well it works. If it is satisfactory the long-term solution may well be to keep re-doing it when necessary, and at the very least it should put off the evil day when the full job has to be done ...

I am inspecting the 'van with Harringtons this afternoon, and will discuss this with them and we will see what their view is.

It seems that we are agreed that this method, on a one-off basis, is not as permanent as removing the seals and rebedding them, but "part of a long term maintenance task" sounds a lot better then "just a temporary repair"!

Thanks for the suggestion,




Oliver




From: Lentement1 Sent: 20/04/2006 22:35
Many thanks for the interesting suggestions and info on this topic. As a DIY job it certainly seems to be one in which you should take your time, and preferably work under cover as well.An immediate problem that comes to mind is one of access , especially to the complex roof -seam area .It will be interesting to see what the professionals advise, and if there are any indications of costs that one could expect.
Pete.




From: ;-Niktoos; Sent: 15/05/2006 23:43
Will be doing this job on my 14 - 2 in the next week, was advised to use silicon, the only problem i have is it has been orginally done and looks a mess, so will have to try and remove some of the Old mastic. Another thing i was advised to do was before i used silicone use CAPTAINS TOLLEY'S CREEPING CRACK CURE , i even found a website selling this but you can find it at most caravan shops www.greenweld.co.uk/acatalog/Shop_DIY_119.html

Its priced £9.99 here but i picked it up for £4, this is supposed to be a liquid that runs and follows the path of the crack and is ideal for the leaks that you may miss!

Calum



From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 16/05/2006 00:56
I, too, would have used silicone sealant, but when I discussed the damp problems on mine with Harringtons last week they advised against using silicone; apparently when the temperature changes dramatically - as it can do with vehicle bodies - it has a tendency to crinkle and to pull away from the substrate.

They suggest using a non-setting mastic designed for the job, which they or any caravan dealer can supply.

Hope this helps,




Oliver

[Brian M]

Dear All
I am about to start some refurbishing work on my recently bought 1980 12/2. I am going to replace the white plastic trim inside all the windows and I need to seal the roof seams due to some slight damp in the top front corner. I have some questions that the gurus out there may be able to help with: once the trim is off the windows, can anyone suggest a suitable treatment for the exposed woodwork before I fit the new trim? Does the new trim get stuck in place, if so, what with? What should I use for sealing roof seams?
regards
Elfyn Hughes




From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 29/11/2006 20:31
Elfyn,

Having this year carried out a similar excercise on my 12/2 and 13/4 I can offer the following advice.

Before removing the window latching furniture mark with pencil on the exterior caravan side panel the screw locations.

Remove the latching furniture and then remove the plastic trim which will be brittle and break up.

Clean the exposed wood of previous mastic etc.

You are only going to expose one side of the four sides that make up the wood rail and if it has lasted 24 years then it will outlast you. But if you would rather, then white spirit diluted with varnish will soak into the wood.

Armed with white spirit and plenty of rags apply a thin bead of caravan beading mastic to the outer edge of the apperture.

Trim the white plastic ( by the way there are many widths to choose from) to length plus a few inches and then start rolling it into place with the small upstand that is moulded in some two thirds across the width, nearer the outside (this is to stop capillary action letting the water drain onto the interior wall cladding).

Start from one top corner and work away round to the other and trim to fit in snug pushing the trim well into the radius corners
.
You will find on the two front side windows that the edge that goes over the interior wall paper will pucker, this is because the new trim is thinner then the original.

By now you will have mastic all over the place including yourself but beware if you wipe to hard to remove it of the van sides you will loose you pencil marks for the latching furniture.

Refit the latching furniture, final wipe down and it should look great.

On my 13/4 the rear window plastic trim was I think 25mm wide and the side windows 27mm. It has to be a snug fit and thin strip of metal like a steel rule will help on the inside should the trim catch and peel back the wallpaper insted of clipping over it.

As for the exterior joints first buy some masking tape and run it some 1/8" from the joint on both faces (there`s nothing worse then just plastering on with a big finger it looks a bloody mess).

Try silicon white and run a bead along the taped up seam, wet the the finger and press it into the joint and quickly remove the tape before it starts to go off.

Finally when you have finished take the caravan to South Stack on Anglesey in a force 8 wet day and check for leaks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Regards

Mike




From: Brian Sent: 30/11/2006 09:04
Mike

Just one small correction. The pencil marks are of more use to you if they are inside the caravan. I used a bit of masking tape on the wallpaper and put my pencil marks on it.

A trip to Anglesey wuold be a bit expensive for me so can I make do with a good hosing down instead?!!

Brian




From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 30/11/2006 09:11
Brian,

Good point and I did try that but found it was quite easy on removing the masking tape to part the wall paper from the ply plus it was easier working outside the van with the window proped up at 90 degrees when drilling off.

You would have to live on Anglesey like Elfyn to know what the South Stack can be like on a bad day but its worth the trip.

Mike




From: ElfynHughes Sent: 30/11/2006 09:30
Dear Mike
Many thanks for your reply and the information, there will be no problem removing the old trim as most of has gone already! Is there a recommended sealant for roof seams, or will any white silicon sealant do?
You are fairly close to me, if you are over in Anglesey, give me a call.
Perhaps we should set up a Safari weather testing area up on South Stack.
Regards
Elfyn

[andyp]

Just read this thread with great interest. My 1974 Safari 17S has extensive damp issues (a saner person would probably scrap it). At some point it has been vandalised at the back with an axe, leaving some nice little holes in the roof. Can I fill these with a car body repair filler?

The comments recommending not to remove all the trim strips to cure water ingress are interesting - I think I will try to seal all the edges without removing the trim.

The Safari has now been moved into a large shed beside my house and is drying out nicely!

[andyp]

Spent a bit of time today removing some of the interior plywood panels from the 17S. As I suspected there is a lot of damp, but probably only a few small points where the water has got in. With the roof lining removed I can see that all the struts holding the roof up at the front of the van are rotten (so rotten that I pulled them all out with my fingers). More concerning is the damage to the sides of the van. One side is worse than the other with quite a bit of the wooden frame is rotten to varying degrees, but with damage appearing to be mainly higher up.
It seems that the plywood has acted as like a sponge, spreading the damp way beyond the original point of ingress.
I really don't know what to do next and have a few questions. I read a post from someone with a 17S which has sat in a field for years. Brian was recommending to check that the body was still attached to the chassis. I feel I should now look at this before proceeding with any repairs to the wooden frame. Any tips on how to check the chassis and what to look for?
After this I think I should remove as many of the fittings at the side with the most damp (in the dining area) to see what the full extent of the damp is. If it gets to the point where I feel the next step is to start digging around behind the kitchen area my gut feeling is that it probably isn't worth proceeding. Any thoughts?
How much of the framework can be replaced safely here and there and at what point is it wiser just to walk away?

[Brian M]

Andy

Sorry to hear about your damp problems.

To answer a couple of the questions you raised.

I don't think the plywood spreads the damp, I think it is the type of wood used for the frame that casues the problem. Safaris are made from "obeche" which is one of the lightest hardwoods, and this implies that is has a less dense structure than say mahogany and so it absorbs more water. Certainly when I stripped the front of mine, I found plywood panels that were damp below damp areas on the frame.

Checking the chassis - a visual check and a poke with a screwdriver in any suspect places will tell you how the metal parts are surviving. If you find any holes or weak bits - I am sorry to say it - but GAME OVER! I cannot think of a way to weld new bits into the chassis without having removed the whole floor, and as the body rests on the floor ........... My previous comment referred to a Safari that had sat in long grass and mud for many many years and so it was likely that damp would have travelled upwards into the chassis and floor.

The wooden cross members could be replaced individually, but even on the two Safaris that I have broken, these seemed to be sound.

To inspect the frame, it makes sense to reverse the build process where the outer panels were fixed last of all. So removing the outer shell first is the way to go. It may be that you have to replace inner panels but again these should be put in place first, the new frame fixed to them and then the ally sheets go on last of all.

I hope you have looked at my album of over 50 pics of the rebuild of the front end of mine which shows some of the frame construction:

rides.webshots.com/album/550745591apQZvX

The big question you ask is when to stop.

I have seen one Safari on which the whole front half of the wooden frame was replaced - theoretically you could replace the whole frame.

But if you only do part of the structure, so long as you replace each piece with the same dimensions and ensure the joints are well made, you will not affect the structural integrity of the whole caravan.

The decision to stop is purely an economic one. If you are a capable carpenter and d-i-y person, the raw material costs are not high. I found a good "commercial" timber yard, (not a B&Q or Homebase) and bought mahogany in the sizes I needed for sensible prices. A caravan repairer supplied my aluminium sheets and the faced plywood for the interior for less than £100 including sealant, rubber and plastic strips etc.

Please let us know what you decide to do, you will get a lot of help and advice from other members if you run into problems, and it always helps if we can see photos of what you are doing.

[andyp]

Thanks Brian,

This is all very encouraging. I've printed off the thumbnails of your restoration photo album. I certainly don't think I need to replace the whole front of the frame. I have taken some pics, but I am awaiting the delivery of a new laptop, after which I will post the pictures (I use older Macintosh computers in the house for work and the system doesn't play ball with some websites).

Thanks again for your help - I still haven't measured that back window to see if your spare one will fit, but that can probably wait until I see how much wood needs replaced! I may also need a door, and definitely one of the grab handles at the back - again this can all wait.

Your dedication to this group does you credit!

Best wishes

Andy