Post by Brian M on Jan 30, 2009 23:52:41 GMT
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Recommend Delete Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: Crjcap1 (Original Message) Sent: 07/12/2004 18:31
Hi I just purchased a 1971 17 foot Safari, I have no idea how this caravan ended up here in Canada but to say the least it is different. I would like to know if they were imported here and if there are others on this side of the pond. Any info would be greatly apreciated. The vin # is cc2111 on the reg. form , but I cannot find a plate on the trailer itsself other than on the metal frame underneath which is a different #. Thanks Craig
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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 08/12/2004 03:04
Hello, and welcome to the fold!
By way of very limited information, the number on the chassis (presumably on the right hand side of the A-frame) is the chassis number, and this will be entirely different from the caravan serial number. The chassis number is allocated by the chassis builder, and relates to their build sequence. The completed chassis were then supplied to Safari Caravans Ltd (then of Stroud, Gloucestershire), who would allocate their own serial number to the completed caravan in accordance with their own build sequence. If I remember correctly, VINs did not come in until long after these caravans were built.
We do not have registration forms for caravans in the UK, so I am not familiar with the form you refer to, but I suspect that this is a third unrelated number.
These chassis were made by B&B Trailers, then of Leamington Spa, Warwickshire; a firm who were subsequently taken over by Alko. The Managing Director of B&B (and I believe also the design engineer) was Ted Billington (one of the two "Bs" in the company name), who may well be still alive - certainly he was still very much alive and active only a very few years ago, although by then elderly. My guess is that he was in his nineties when I was last in touch with him, perhaps five years ago, and he was for many years a respected senior member of what was originally the Safari Caravan Owners' Club.
I have always had the impression that B&B Trailers was a small "family" firm owned by its directors, and I have assumed that they sold out to Alko when Ted retired. Others may be able to either confirm or correct that.
The Safari Caravan Owners'Club club eventually had to take a decision as to its future when Safari Caravans went out of production, and many members wanted to retain their membership but also to continue regularly replacing their 'vans with new ones, even if that meant switching to a current make. They therefore decided to open the club to other makes, and drop "Owners'" from the name, so that it became just the Safari Caravan Club. That may or may not have given them an extended lease of life, but it did have the effect that they no longer offered anything special to owners of actual Safaris, which is why I left them; had I remained I would by now be finding that my one would often be the only actual Safari on a rally. My private opinion is that it has become a Carlight club in all but name, and while they are also very fine caravans - and with little to choose between the two makes for build quality - purely stylistically I prefer the Safari.
Incidentally Ted assured me that he designed the chassis for the 17ft Safaris to carry a load of 30 cwt (a little over 1500 kg), although Safari Caravans Ltd (the caravan builder) then plated them at only 1300 kg, and there is some indication that they then downrated the choice of tyres to match this reduced load. The problem is that many of us find it almost impossible to get our outfits down to the plated figure! Hence the reason for my telephone discussion with him, and hence the need also to ensure that tyres are up to the actual load if your outfit weighs over the handbook figure, and not just slavishly follow the tyre size specified in the Safari handbook. For many years I have used "C-rated" tyres, from memory 185 R 14 C, which are 6-ply construction and are well up to the load, but when I last had a tyre replaced I found to my (pleasant surprise) that the fitter replaced it with an 8-ply one with an even larger load capacity.
It does occur to me that if there was such a thing as a North American Specification that long ago you may find that your tyres (and possibly wheels also) are a different size from the UK ones, but do check the rated maximum load for the tyres against the actual weight of your 'van when loaded for touring.
One further point from that discussion with Ted Billington is worth passing on. On one early Continental rally with the Safari Owners' Club he found that some members were loading up their caravans with duty-free liquor, to the extent that they were seriously down on their suspension, so in his capacity as the engineer who designed the chassis he immediately uprated all the affected suspensions! They use coil springs, as I am sure you have already discovered, and he went the rounds of local car scrap yards and picked up springs which would fit nicely inside the existing springs and give just enough extra lift to stiffen the suspension. Then he incorporated that into the design for later 'vans.
If your one already has this modification, well and good; if not then it is something that you might wish to consider doing. Telling me about this over 20 years later Ted thought that he had used Renault springs, but I am sure it is not critical and there must be plenty of light car springs which would do the job.
Incidentally there is limited adjustment available on the suspension; the vertical rod up through the centre of the springs is threaded, and the nut at the top is both the main load bearer and an adjuster. Adjustment is correct when, with the 'van standing on its wheels on level ground, the swinging arms are parallel to the main axle member.
The caravan Serial Number may well have gone missing; at least on the later vans which I am familiar with it was stamped onto a thin aluminium alloy plate which was secured by adhesive adjacent to and just ahead of the door, so it is quite possible for this plate to have disappeared, particularly if that panel has ever been replaced (or even just repainted). Certainly on the later 'vans it would have been a number, I would guess 5-digits (my two 'vans certainly are), starting with the year of build, i.e 71xxx. I presume your one would have had the same system, although I cannot vouch for it. Therefore I question whether the number that you have on the registration form is the same as the serial number.
It is of course possible that a different series of serial numbers may have been used for North American Exports, but I cannot see any reason for the manufacturer doing so - since I would expect the serial number to relate to their production sequence and not to the end user. It is also possible that they may not have exported new vehicles at all, and that yours may have been taken over much later by its then current owner.
My own experience of Safaris is of slightly more recent 'vans that yours, i.e a 1974 12/2 which my parents bought new and kept for many years, then a 1982 14/2 which replaced it in 1984, and then in about 1991 they bought a 1981 14/2 (now owned by my brother) which replaced the interloping and unsatisfactory brand new Abbey which very briefly succeeded their 1982 Safari, plus a 1978 17/2 that I myself bought in January 1991, and more recently a 1980 17/2 that I bought in 2002. I still have both these 17/2s, but am starting to look for a good home for the 1978 one.
I presume your one will have a number of differences from our rather later ones, probably single-glazed windows and possibly a curved top to the door and a different shape of gas locker, and maybe a thicker stripe down the sides with no dip at the rear end. (Our slightly younger ones all had a flat top to the door, and a narrow side stripe that dipped at both ends, and all except the 1974 'van had double glazing.)
Whatever the detail differences, they are superb caravans, and are now becoming rare classics. The 17ft ones are particularly rare, especially (I think) the 17/2 and the 17/S, although all three of the 17s are almost as rare as gold dust.
Out of interest, do you know which model you have? The17/2 is a luxurious 2-berth, with an end kitchen, which together with the washroom can be screened off from the living area by means of a sliding door, and a double wardrobe, and opposite the wardrobe a commodious sideboard (I think, without going out to the 'van to measure, that the sideboard is getting on for 3 ft wide). The 17/S is a 4-berth, with a centre kitchen, and 2 of the berths form an end bedroom which can be screened off by a sliding door. The 17/4 is a 4-berth of more conventional layout, but I have never seen one and without going out to the caravan to look up the manaufacturer's sales brochure I cannot remember the details.
I hope your one gives you as much enjoyment as I have had, and still continue to have, from mine.
I hope this limited information is helpful. I have no knowledge myself of any North American Exports, but it is possible that other members of the Group may know something. Failing that, do get back to me and I will try to sound out past acquaintances in the Safari Caravan Club; I think it possible that if anyone knows the answers the knowledge might be there, amongst some of the older members, and I hope I can resurrect my contacts there.
Regards,
Oliver L. Shaw
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Recommend Delete Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 08/12/2004 18:52
Craig
I echo Oliver's welcome to the group, but you are not our first transatlanitc member - George joined us a year ago and he lives in Northern California, but has the advantage of knowing the history of his Safari 12/2 from new. He also knows how his came to be in America.
As always, Oliver has provided a detailed reply, and is our 17ft Safari expert, so there is not much he doesn't know. It would be great if you could find a Safari serial number, do you have any Owners Manuals, as the numbers were often written on them. To precisely date your Safari is a bit of a problem but is always made easier if we can see some photos. Just create your own album, we will have a look and try to help you.
Brian Miller
Group Founder.
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Recommend Delete Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Crjcap1 Sent: 09/12/2004 21:43
I have posted one pic hope that helps on ident. I don't have manuals at all so any info at all would be great. Inside are 2 small beds on one end a bigger bed (folds out) in the middle and the kitchen and bathroom with the slide out door. Thanks again Craig
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Recommend Delete Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 11/12/2004 11:03
Craig
I can't quite see if yours has one big window at the front or is a split front, if it is a one-piece that puts it after 1966 and the rounded top to your door puts it before about 1972.
From another message thread "Can you age this Safari" I would guess yours is late 60's.
We are still trying to get some of the changes dated more accurately and so any contributions would be gratefully received
Brian Miller
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Recommend Delete Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 11/12/2004 14:01
The more I look at it the more I think it is a one-piece front window, although I agree it is marginal whether this is clear enough on the photo for one to be certain. However the top and bottom edges do look to be continuous.
From the way the window protrudes forward it also looks to be double glazed, in which case it seems to be a later replacement, either a deliberate modification for its own sake or a replacement after a breakage and the then owner has taken the opportunity to upgrade at the same time. Perhaps a special conversion for the Canadian climate??
The problem with that is that, if I am right, we cannot use the window to date the 'van at all because we know it is not original.
I think the side and door windows look to be single glazed, but the angle of view does not enable me to be at all certain about these.
Other keys to the period are the shape of the side flashes, the sharp edge to the raised portion of roof above the door, possible the shap of the road wheel apertures, and (less reliably, because this is easy to change retrospectively) the shape of the gas locker.
I am also intrigued by whay appears to be a vertical beading (covering a panel join
) the full height of the 'van, just forward of the axle, with two short horizontal beadings forward from this on the lower panel.
At the moment I cannot be precise on the dating of these changes, but I would happily go along with late sixties, although I would readily accept Craig's own date of 1971 if he feels that the date he was given by the previous owner is reliable.
Regards,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 1 of 6 in Discussion
From: Crjcap1 (Original Message) Sent: 07/12/2004 18:31
Hi I just purchased a 1971 17 foot Safari, I have no idea how this caravan ended up here in Canada but to say the least it is different. I would like to know if they were imported here and if there are others on this side of the pond. Any info would be greatly apreciated. The vin # is cc2111 on the reg. form , but I cannot find a plate on the trailer itsself other than on the metal frame underneath which is a different #. Thanks Craig
First Previous 2-6 of 6 Next Last Delete Replies
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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 08/12/2004 03:04
Hello, and welcome to the fold!
By way of very limited information, the number on the chassis (presumably on the right hand side of the A-frame) is the chassis number, and this will be entirely different from the caravan serial number. The chassis number is allocated by the chassis builder, and relates to their build sequence. The completed chassis were then supplied to Safari Caravans Ltd (then of Stroud, Gloucestershire), who would allocate their own serial number to the completed caravan in accordance with their own build sequence. If I remember correctly, VINs did not come in until long after these caravans were built.
We do not have registration forms for caravans in the UK, so I am not familiar with the form you refer to, but I suspect that this is a third unrelated number.
These chassis were made by B&B Trailers, then of Leamington Spa, Warwickshire; a firm who were subsequently taken over by Alko. The Managing Director of B&B (and I believe also the design engineer) was Ted Billington (one of the two "Bs" in the company name), who may well be still alive - certainly he was still very much alive and active only a very few years ago, although by then elderly. My guess is that he was in his nineties when I was last in touch with him, perhaps five years ago, and he was for many years a respected senior member of what was originally the Safari Caravan Owners' Club.
I have always had the impression that B&B Trailers was a small "family" firm owned by its directors, and I have assumed that they sold out to Alko when Ted retired. Others may be able to either confirm or correct that.
The Safari Caravan Owners'Club club eventually had to take a decision as to its future when Safari Caravans went out of production, and many members wanted to retain their membership but also to continue regularly replacing their 'vans with new ones, even if that meant switching to a current make. They therefore decided to open the club to other makes, and drop "Owners'" from the name, so that it became just the Safari Caravan Club. That may or may not have given them an extended lease of life, but it did have the effect that they no longer offered anything special to owners of actual Safaris, which is why I left them; had I remained I would by now be finding that my one would often be the only actual Safari on a rally. My private opinion is that it has become a Carlight club in all but name, and while they are also very fine caravans - and with little to choose between the two makes for build quality - purely stylistically I prefer the Safari.
Incidentally Ted assured me that he designed the chassis for the 17ft Safaris to carry a load of 30 cwt (a little over 1500 kg), although Safari Caravans Ltd (the caravan builder) then plated them at only 1300 kg, and there is some indication that they then downrated the choice of tyres to match this reduced load. The problem is that many of us find it almost impossible to get our outfits down to the plated figure! Hence the reason for my telephone discussion with him, and hence the need also to ensure that tyres are up to the actual load if your outfit weighs over the handbook figure, and not just slavishly follow the tyre size specified in the Safari handbook. For many years I have used "C-rated" tyres, from memory 185 R 14 C, which are 6-ply construction and are well up to the load, but when I last had a tyre replaced I found to my (pleasant surprise) that the fitter replaced it with an 8-ply one with an even larger load capacity.
It does occur to me that if there was such a thing as a North American Specification that long ago you may find that your tyres (and possibly wheels also) are a different size from the UK ones, but do check the rated maximum load for the tyres against the actual weight of your 'van when loaded for touring.
One further point from that discussion with Ted Billington is worth passing on. On one early Continental rally with the Safari Owners' Club he found that some members were loading up their caravans with duty-free liquor, to the extent that they were seriously down on their suspension, so in his capacity as the engineer who designed the chassis he immediately uprated all the affected suspensions! They use coil springs, as I am sure you have already discovered, and he went the rounds of local car scrap yards and picked up springs which would fit nicely inside the existing springs and give just enough extra lift to stiffen the suspension. Then he incorporated that into the design for later 'vans.
If your one already has this modification, well and good; if not then it is something that you might wish to consider doing. Telling me about this over 20 years later Ted thought that he had used Renault springs, but I am sure it is not critical and there must be plenty of light car springs which would do the job.
Incidentally there is limited adjustment available on the suspension; the vertical rod up through the centre of the springs is threaded, and the nut at the top is both the main load bearer and an adjuster. Adjustment is correct when, with the 'van standing on its wheels on level ground, the swinging arms are parallel to the main axle member.
The caravan Serial Number may well have gone missing; at least on the later vans which I am familiar with it was stamped onto a thin aluminium alloy plate which was secured by adhesive adjacent to and just ahead of the door, so it is quite possible for this plate to have disappeared, particularly if that panel has ever been replaced (or even just repainted). Certainly on the later 'vans it would have been a number, I would guess 5-digits (my two 'vans certainly are), starting with the year of build, i.e 71xxx. I presume your one would have had the same system, although I cannot vouch for it. Therefore I question whether the number that you have on the registration form is the same as the serial number.
It is of course possible that a different series of serial numbers may have been used for North American Exports, but I cannot see any reason for the manufacturer doing so - since I would expect the serial number to relate to their production sequence and not to the end user. It is also possible that they may not have exported new vehicles at all, and that yours may have been taken over much later by its then current owner.
My own experience of Safaris is of slightly more recent 'vans that yours, i.e a 1974 12/2 which my parents bought new and kept for many years, then a 1982 14/2 which replaced it in 1984, and then in about 1991 they bought a 1981 14/2 (now owned by my brother) which replaced the interloping and unsatisfactory brand new Abbey which very briefly succeeded their 1982 Safari, plus a 1978 17/2 that I myself bought in January 1991, and more recently a 1980 17/2 that I bought in 2002. I still have both these 17/2s, but am starting to look for a good home for the 1978 one.
I presume your one will have a number of differences from our rather later ones, probably single-glazed windows and possibly a curved top to the door and a different shape of gas locker, and maybe a thicker stripe down the sides with no dip at the rear end. (Our slightly younger ones all had a flat top to the door, and a narrow side stripe that dipped at both ends, and all except the 1974 'van had double glazing.)
Whatever the detail differences, they are superb caravans, and are now becoming rare classics. The 17ft ones are particularly rare, especially (I think) the 17/2 and the 17/S, although all three of the 17s are almost as rare as gold dust.
Out of interest, do you know which model you have? The17/2 is a luxurious 2-berth, with an end kitchen, which together with the washroom can be screened off from the living area by means of a sliding door, and a double wardrobe, and opposite the wardrobe a commodious sideboard (I think, without going out to the 'van to measure, that the sideboard is getting on for 3 ft wide). The 17/S is a 4-berth, with a centre kitchen, and 2 of the berths form an end bedroom which can be screened off by a sliding door. The 17/4 is a 4-berth of more conventional layout, but I have never seen one and without going out to the caravan to look up the manaufacturer's sales brochure I cannot remember the details.
I hope your one gives you as much enjoyment as I have had, and still continue to have, from mine.
I hope this limited information is helpful. I have no knowledge myself of any North American Exports, but it is possible that other members of the Group may know something. Failing that, do get back to me and I will try to sound out past acquaintances in the Safari Caravan Club; I think it possible that if anyone knows the answers the knowledge might be there, amongst some of the older members, and I hope I can resurrect my contacts there.
Regards,
Oliver L. Shaw
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 08/12/2004 18:52
Craig
I echo Oliver's welcome to the group, but you are not our first transatlanitc member - George joined us a year ago and he lives in Northern California, but has the advantage of knowing the history of his Safari 12/2 from new. He also knows how his came to be in America.
As always, Oliver has provided a detailed reply, and is our 17ft Safari expert, so there is not much he doesn't know. It would be great if you could find a Safari serial number, do you have any Owners Manuals, as the numbers were often written on them. To precisely date your Safari is a bit of a problem but is always made easier if we can see some photos. Just create your own album, we will have a look and try to help you.
Brian Miller
Group Founder.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Crjcap1 Sent: 09/12/2004 21:43
I have posted one pic hope that helps on ident. I don't have manuals at all so any info at all would be great. Inside are 2 small beds on one end a bigger bed (folds out) in the middle and the kitchen and bathroom with the slide out door. Thanks again Craig
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 11/12/2004 11:03
Craig
I can't quite see if yours has one big window at the front or is a split front, if it is a one-piece that puts it after 1966 and the rounded top to your door puts it before about 1972.
From another message thread "Can you age this Safari" I would guess yours is late 60's.
We are still trying to get some of the changes dated more accurately and so any contributions would be gratefully received
Brian Miller
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 11/12/2004 14:01
The more I look at it the more I think it is a one-piece front window, although I agree it is marginal whether this is clear enough on the photo for one to be certain. However the top and bottom edges do look to be continuous.
From the way the window protrudes forward it also looks to be double glazed, in which case it seems to be a later replacement, either a deliberate modification for its own sake or a replacement after a breakage and the then owner has taken the opportunity to upgrade at the same time. Perhaps a special conversion for the Canadian climate??
The problem with that is that, if I am right, we cannot use the window to date the 'van at all because we know it is not original.
I think the side and door windows look to be single glazed, but the angle of view does not enable me to be at all certain about these.
Other keys to the period are the shape of the side flashes, the sharp edge to the raised portion of roof above the door, possible the shap of the road wheel apertures, and (less reliably, because this is easy to change retrospectively) the shape of the gas locker.
I am also intrigued by whay appears to be a vertical beading (covering a panel join
) the full height of the 'van, just forward of the axle, with two short horizontal beadings forward from this on the lower panel.At the moment I cannot be precise on the dating of these changes, but I would happily go along with late sixties, although I would readily accept Craig's own date of 1971 if he feels that the date he was given by the previous owner is reliable.
Regards,
Oliver