Post by Brian M on Feb 1, 2009 12:30:10 GMT
From: Denzel10009 (Original Message) Sent: 10/01/2008 11:56
Hi everybody, Happy new year!
I just wondered what experience folks have had with stabilisers on Safaris, particularly the 12/2 and what opinions are as to whether they are really needed or not. Best wishes, Den.
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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 10/01/2008 14:53
I always routinely use a stabiliser if available, even with only a smallish caravan, but only as a backup to assist with the occasional twitch.
Good examples of its proper role: it can be very useful to help control the outfit if an overtaking HGV on a motorway or dual carriageway (or indeed one that you are yourself overtaking) generates a large bow wave, oe if you unexpectedly have to take evasive action that involved a rapid lane change.
I have used the Scott for about thirty years and am well pleased with it, and (with a different outfit) for about ten years I used a Trapezium. I found both to be excellent, but the Trapezium is top of the price bracket, and by a very long way. Both require occasional maintenance, and the Scott requires some care in initial setting up the correct friction load.
I found that when I was doing far more caravanning than I do now my (early model) Trapezium required moderately frequent lubrication of the pivots, and adjustment to them a few times per year in order to maintain free movement without introducing any play.
What a stabiliser should NOT be used for is to control a seriously unstable outfit, because it will merely help to mask rather than cure the problem, and the occasion may then arise when the problem becomes too large for the stabiliser to handle. That is when you are at risk of a potentially disastrous accident.
If you have a serious stability problem it is important to address that directly. Consider your weights, and weight ratio; if the caravan is overweight when loaded you will need to offload some of your contents, possibly putting some of the heavier items into the car. You will probably also wish to empty all water containers and the loo before towing, although I always like to carry at least a couple of gallons of water so that I have the option of stopping en route for a meal or whatever, and have at least enough water for a brew up when I arrive on site.
Consider also WHERE the heavy items in the caravan are stowed; low down and as near the axle as possible. Fortunately Safaris are well designed in that respect, and if you use the lockers and cupboards for the obvious purposes (e.g. the food in the food cupboard, etc, bedding under the bunks, etc) that will largely look after itself and you won't have to change stowage locations of anything before you tow. But you may have a problem if you want to carry heavy additional equipment inside the caravan, e.g. awning, spare wheel, etc. Far better to put that in the car.
Also check the condition of the tyres and suspension and the tyre pressures (on both vehicles).
If the weight ratio is wrong - caravan too heavy in relation to the car - your only options beyond moving the heavier kit into the car are either to change the car or to drive a little slower and with appropriate care. If in doubt, it is very simple to adopt a self-imposed speed limit of 50 mph, even on motorways, and if you then keep to the inside lane you are not impeding faster traffic from overtaking you.
I have very occasionally (three times in ten years) had my own cars of the time temporarily out of action, and have had to tow my 17-2 with borrowed cars that were really much too small and light for the job. I have never had a problem, but I have taken care to keep my speed below the onset of instability; at times that has meant no more than 40-45 mph, which gets a bit tedious on a long journey. With experience you can feel the onset of instability, when the outfit starts to get just a little "twitchy", long before you have a significant problem.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend (1 recommendation so far) Delete Message 3 of 15 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 10/01/2008 17:50
One thing I have found with the SAFARI caravan is their great stability and good towing manners. I tow a 12/2 and a 13/4 and dispensed with a stabilizer fitted to the 13/4, I use a Volvo V70 2.5 to tow and occasionally a 1962 Triumph Vitesse 1600. I have a friend with a 13/4 again without a stabilizer and he tows with a VW Sharon. I have towed using the VW Sharon, a 15/4 on the M5 from Bristol to Chester and found at one time I was cruising along at 70 such was the stability without a stabilizer.
I have also found that overtaking or being overtaken has presented no problems with a SAFARI having done about 3,500 miles per annum over the last four years without a stabilizer.
The Kessock bridge, Tamar bridge and others in a gale again have presented no problems.
By the way I also tow a four wheel car trailer again without a stabilzer with my Vintage car on it and at 60 mph it is as steady as a rock.
Just ensure you have about 1 cwt on the nose of the caravan to tow hitch.
Look forward to seeing you at the 2008 SAFARI rally with or without a tow hitch!
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Recommend Delete Message 4 of 15 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert Sent: 10/01/2008 23:48
Hi Den,
I have used a Scott stabiliser for some years. Mainly as our old Thomson certainly needed it as it snaked very easily. Also as we have friends whose caravan fell apart after snaking in high winds with no stabiliser. As my Safari 12/2 came with the fitting for this on the A frame, I simply carried on using it. Don't know what it is like without, but it is extremely stable with the stabiliser.
Cliff
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Recommend Delete Message 5 of 15 in Discussion
From: Denzel10009 Sent: 11/01/2008 00:46
Thanks for that useful advice Sylvester. Den.
On 10 Jan 2008, at 17:50, Sylvesteruk1 wrote:
New Message on Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts
Towing Stabilisers
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Reply to Sender Recommend Message 3 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1
One thing I have found with the SAFARI caravan is their great stability and good towing manners. I tow a 12/2 and a 13/4 and dispensed with a stabilizer fitted to the 13/4, I use a Volvo V70 2.5 to tow and occasionally a 1962 Triumph Vitesse 1600. I have a friend with a 13/4 again without a stabilizer and he tows with a VW Sharon. I have towed using the VW Sharon, a 15/4 on the M5 from Bristol to Chester and found at one time I was cruising along at 70 such was the stability without a stabilizer.
I have also found that overtaking or being overtaken has presented no problems with a SAFARI having done about 3,500 miles per annum over the last four years without a stabilizer.
The Kessock bridge, Tamar bridge and others in a gale again have presented no problems.
By the way I also tow a four wheel car trailer again without a stabilzer with my Vintage car on it and at 60 mph it is as steady as a rock.
Just ensure you have about 1 cwt on the nose of the caravan to tow hitch.
Look forward to seeing you at the 2008 SAFARI rally with or without a tow hitch!
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Recommend Delete Message 6 of 15 in Discussion
From: Denzel10009 Sent: 11/01/2008 13:10
Great, Thanks for that Cliff. I have a U shaped fitting on my A frame and I think it is for a Blade/Leaf spring type stabiliser, I'll check with previous owner what they had. Den
On 10 Jan 2008, at 23:48, Safariconvert wrote:
New Message on Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts
Towing Stabilisers
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Reply to Sender Recommend Message 4 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert
Hi Den,
I have used a Scott stabiliser for some years. Mainly as our old Thomson certainly needed it as it snaked very easily. Also as we have friends whose caravan fell apart after snaking in high winds with no stabiliser. As my Safari 12/2 came with the fitting for this on the A frame, I simply carried on using it. Don't know what it is like without, but it is extremely stable with the stabiliser.
Cliff
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Recommend Delete Message 7 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 14/01/2008 13:38
Hi Den
Towing a caravan without a stabiliser fitted is not good practice and any advice
to the contrary is foolish and irresponsible.
Maybe it's alright being Jack the Lad doing seventy with a van, but consider what
could happen if it was necessary to suddenly brake or if the van wheel hit an
undulation in the road surface. Foolhardy!!!
As a motorist and more so with a van in tow, there is a responsibility to ensure that
your rig is as safe as possible, and to this end stabilisers were designed.
Likewise the wire cable attached to the van handbrake lever, there to apply the van
brakes if by chance it became detatched when being towed. Because your van has
never accidentally become detached it does not imply that the safety cable is not necessary.
So, if you have never experienced instability of the van do not be deceived into thinking
'it could never happen to me'.
There are a couple of letters in the Documents Section that may be of interest.
Regards
ColinC
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Recommend Delete Message 8 of 15 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 14/01/2008 14:30
Colin,
I was pointing out that the outfit was so stable that before I knew it I was doing 70mph, I normally drive my rig at 55 mph max on the motorways and a lot less on minor roads and I have a wire brake cable in case it should break away, you mention that as though I am a complete plonker. All SAFARI brochures show no stabilsers as standard and they, like my car trailer tow extremely well so I will thank you for not calling me "fool hardy". With a RAC competition licence and a CAA jet pilots licence as well as having passed the advanced driving licence I feel at 63 I am not jack the lad either.
How is your caravaning these days as you write with a million miles of towing under your belt?
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Recommend Delete Message 9 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 14/01/2008 15:55
Getting close.
But you have twenty odd years to catch up.
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Recommend Delete Message 10 of 15 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 14/01/2008 18:44
While I have a lot of sympathy with Mike on this, there is validity on both sides of the argument.
I am sure we are all in agreement that a stabiliser is not intended to cure an inherently unstable outfit; that should be addressed in other ways. The stabiliser should be used only once that condition has been met, to provide a "safety reserve" for an already stable outfit; to keep it stable in those brief moments when particularly large disturbing elements arise, as per my original reply on this topic. I understand that this is also the advice of the Caravan Club.
Historically, at the time that the earlier classic Safaris were new the legal speed limit for towing vehicles was only 30 mph. Certainly both Colin and I, and I suspect Mike also, started our caravanning days with this limit in place; more modern caravanners may find it hard to imagine towing from Merseyside to Scotland, or to Devon, at a legal maximum of 30 mph, but we did so!
Later, by the early sixties if memory serves correctly, it was raised to 40 mph.
Later still, I think the early seventies, it was conditionally raised to 50 mph, but only for those outfits which qualified. In order to qualify the outfit had to conform to certain weight restrictions; I would now guess (but cannot reliably remember) that the requirement might have been a weight ratio of not more than 100%. Certainly not all outfits qualified, but those that did (which included many but not all caravans) had to display a "50" sticker at the rear of the trailer if they wished to avail themselves of the higher limits.
At about this time a problem of stability then started to emerge, although only at these higher speeds, and it was precisely to address these problems that stabilisers were developed. Undoubtedly this had started to happen by 1974, when my parents bought their Safari 12-2 new, complete with stabiliser on the recommendation of the dealer. The fact that they were available, and were recommended by dealers, suggests that the need had started to emerge by that time.
I can vouch for that date, as that was my first experience of using a stabiliser; they may perhaps have been developed a little earlier, but I can't vouch for that.
Later still, the towing speed limit (on motorways and dual carriageways only, of course) was raised again, to its present 60 mph.
Hence caravans are routinely today towed very significantly faster than was the case when the Safari brochures were printed, and they are also routinely towed on motorways and fast dual carriageways amidst a far higher concentration of fast HGVs and coaches.
Centripetal and centrifugal forces are relevant when a caravan starts swaying, and as Mike will most certainly know (as a retired engineer) these are proportional to the square of the speed.
Windage forces generated when the bow-wave from an HGV or coach strikes a corner of a caravan are also proportional to the square of the speed (this time of the airstream, which in turn is related to the speed of the HGV or coach), and these forces are one of the elements that can start the sway. At the same time as towing speeds of caravans increased, so did the speeds of typical HGVs and coaches.
Thus two important sets of forces are both proportional to the square of the speed. So when the speed of the caravanner increases from 40 mph to 60 mph the centripetal and centrifugal forces are more than doubled; indeed the factor is two and a quarter. Likewise the bow-wave forces generated by passing HGVs and coaches have similarly increased. This increase is enough to raise a situation which was never originally a problem into one where a potentially lethal problem may arise if one fails to take steps to control it.
Hence whatever may have been the case in the far more gently demands of the seventies and eighties, and the need was already identified even then, at today's speeds and in today's traffic conditions it is undoubtedly best practice to use a stabiliser.
I personally will always use one, if available, but I do occasionally tow with a combination where it is not available, and I then use appropriate caution - which may in some instances involve travelling at a lower speed. Nonetheless I have twice been caught out when not using one, and the account of both occasions is instructive. I recount these stories against myself, and despite my long experience I still learned from them.
The first time was towing my parents' 14-2 behind my Volvo 240. Both our outfits had stabilisers, but of different types, and the fittings were incompatible, and on this occasion I was towing their caravan with my car - so could not fit a stabiliser. I wasn't unduly concerned, because their 14-2 was such a lightweight compared to my own 17-2, so I anticipated no problems.
On the return trip from Devon, in an otherwise routine and uneventful tow, we were travelling along a straight bit of motorway when quite out of the blue we suddenly went into moderately severe snaking. At the time I was far too busy retrieving the situation, which thankfully I was able to do without incident, to concern myself with what had triggered it; it could have been a passing HGV but nearly twenty years later I have no recollection of that. But very clearly, even as a highly experienced towing driver, something which I had not forseen had triggered the snaking, and I then had to use all my skill and experience to retrieve the situation. I strongly suspect that a stabiliser would have helped significantly.
The other occasion was towards the end of a tour of the Highlands, woting my 17-2. A day before the start of the tour another driver had used my car as a means of stopping at red traffic lights, thereby writing off both vehicles, so her insurers had hired a Discovery for us to enable us to still have our planned holiday.
That Discovery was a revelation as a tow vehicle, which is the direct reason why I later bought one myself, and I am now on my second one, but it was not fitted for a stabiliser. However the car was so very stable, and so very much heavier than even the 17-2, that I felt no need of one.
Coming down the M74, gently downhill, I overtook a slower vehicle, and - somewhat to my surprise after towing perhaps 1000 miles with that outfit - I experienced significant sway as I made the lane change back to the inside after overtaking him. Nothing serious, but nonetheless enough to be very obvious, and again I had to immediately take steps to retrieve the situation.
So at today's speeds and in today's traffic I stick to my recommendation: first ensure that the outfit is inherently stable, then ALSO routinely use a stabiliser to provide a reserve of safety.
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 11 of 15 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 15/01/2008 09:07
Oliver,
You have raised some good points however as a young "jack the lad" I was a keen sailor and white water canoeist being a member of the Chester Sailing and Canoe Club. Among the members was the late Colin Witter and his three sons Brendan, Robin and Rodney all were part of the Witter tow bar company. Brendan use to compete in timed Caravan Rallies through out the UK in the 60`s and some of these rallies were on the race track such as Oulton Park. From this Witters were the first to come up with an anti snaking device called the Mongoose ( in real life an animal that killed snakes and old caravanners). Brendan had found that some caravans had very poor stability at speed where as others were excellant. So the Mongoose was used when race rallying with poor unstable caravans.
Regards
"Mike the lad"
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Recommend Delete Message 12 of 15 in Discussion
From: Denzel10009 Sent: 15/01/2008 10:22
Many Thanks Colin.
Shine brightly!
Denis Jevon
djevon@totalise.co.uk
www.enviroheal.com
www.emotionalhealing.me.uk
On 14 Jan 2008, at 13:38, Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts wrote:
New Message on Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts
Towing Stabilisers
Reply
Recommend Message 7 in Discussion
From: ColinC
Hi Den
Towing a caravan without a stabiliser fitted is not good practice and any advice
to the contrary is foolish and irresponsible.
Maybe it's alright being Jack the Lad doing seventy with a van, but consider what
could happen if it was necessary to suddenly brake or if the van wheel hit an
undulation in the road surface. Foolhardy!!!
As a motorist and more so with a van in tow, there is a responsibility to ensure that
your rig is as safe as possible, and to this end stabilisers were designed.
Likewise the wire cable attached to the van handbrake lever, there to apply the van
brakes if by chance it became detatched when being towed. Because your van has
never accidentally become detached it does not imply that the safety cable is not necessary.
So, if you have never experienced instability of the van do not be deceived into thinking
'it could never happen to me'.
There are a couple of letters in the Documents Section that may be of interest.
Regards
ColinC
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Recommend Delete Message 13 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 15/01/2008 12:16
Yes Mike, I have used a Witter Mongoose Tow Ball since they were first marketed. As described in the Safari 1 Doc. in the Documents Section. Until you reminded I had forgotten the name.<o:p></o:p>
However, they were only an anti-snaking device and did not address the pitching element of instability. <o:p></o:p>
Pitching can occur at low road speeds as we experienced very early in my caravanning days and is most uncomfortable. In the late 50’s we were touring in Scotland, near Fort William, and decided to take the A830 to Mallaig, the Road to the Isles as it was romantically called. Well, the road undulates so severely that we were all sea sick (for want of a better expression) and had to abort the expedition. <o:p></o:p>
Leaf spring stabilisers dampen this instability hence when they became available I used both. Whilst the Scott Stabiliser dampens both elements of instability, I still retained the Mongoose. As we say in <st1:place>Yorkshire</st1:place> ‘Belt and Braces’.<o:p></o:p>
Regards<o:p></o:p>
ColinC<o:p></o:p>
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Recommend Delete Message 14 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 15/01/2008 15:17
TOWING STABILISERS<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Hi Oliver.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Many thanks for your contributions on the above subject.<o:p></o:p>
Regarding destabilisation caused when being overtaken by a high sided vehicle:<o:p></o:p>
My experience is that the low pressure created at the rear of the passing vehicle created a greater disturbance than the bow wave.<o:p></o:p>
Perhaps because having been pushed away by the increase in pressure, returning to the normal position was accelerated by the reduction in pressure, the beginning of snaking instability.<o:p></o:p>
An interesting subject, I’m surprised that someone hasn’t researched it, or perhaps they have?<o:p></o:p>
Regards<o:p></o:p>
ColinC<o:p></o:p>
Hi everybody, Happy new year!
I just wondered what experience folks have had with stabilisers on Safaris, particularly the 12/2 and what opinions are as to whether they are really needed or not. Best wishes, Den.
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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 15 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 10/01/2008 14:53
I always routinely use a stabiliser if available, even with only a smallish caravan, but only as a backup to assist with the occasional twitch.
Good examples of its proper role: it can be very useful to help control the outfit if an overtaking HGV on a motorway or dual carriageway (or indeed one that you are yourself overtaking) generates a large bow wave, oe if you unexpectedly have to take evasive action that involved a rapid lane change.
I have used the Scott for about thirty years and am well pleased with it, and (with a different outfit) for about ten years I used a Trapezium. I found both to be excellent, but the Trapezium is top of the price bracket, and by a very long way. Both require occasional maintenance, and the Scott requires some care in initial setting up the correct friction load.
I found that when I was doing far more caravanning than I do now my (early model) Trapezium required moderately frequent lubrication of the pivots, and adjustment to them a few times per year in order to maintain free movement without introducing any play.
What a stabiliser should NOT be used for is to control a seriously unstable outfit, because it will merely help to mask rather than cure the problem, and the occasion may then arise when the problem becomes too large for the stabiliser to handle. That is when you are at risk of a potentially disastrous accident.
If you have a serious stability problem it is important to address that directly. Consider your weights, and weight ratio; if the caravan is overweight when loaded you will need to offload some of your contents, possibly putting some of the heavier items into the car. You will probably also wish to empty all water containers and the loo before towing, although I always like to carry at least a couple of gallons of water so that I have the option of stopping en route for a meal or whatever, and have at least enough water for a brew up when I arrive on site.
Consider also WHERE the heavy items in the caravan are stowed; low down and as near the axle as possible. Fortunately Safaris are well designed in that respect, and if you use the lockers and cupboards for the obvious purposes (e.g. the food in the food cupboard, etc, bedding under the bunks, etc) that will largely look after itself and you won't have to change stowage locations of anything before you tow. But you may have a problem if you want to carry heavy additional equipment inside the caravan, e.g. awning, spare wheel, etc. Far better to put that in the car.
Also check the condition of the tyres and suspension and the tyre pressures (on both vehicles).
If the weight ratio is wrong - caravan too heavy in relation to the car - your only options beyond moving the heavier kit into the car are either to change the car or to drive a little slower and with appropriate care. If in doubt, it is very simple to adopt a self-imposed speed limit of 50 mph, even on motorways, and if you then keep to the inside lane you are not impeding faster traffic from overtaking you.
I have very occasionally (three times in ten years) had my own cars of the time temporarily out of action, and have had to tow my 17-2 with borrowed cars that were really much too small and light for the job. I have never had a problem, but I have taken care to keep my speed below the onset of instability; at times that has meant no more than 40-45 mph, which gets a bit tedious on a long journey. With experience you can feel the onset of instability, when the outfit starts to get just a little "twitchy", long before you have a significant problem.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend (1 recommendation so far) Delete Message 3 of 15 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 10/01/2008 17:50
One thing I have found with the SAFARI caravan is their great stability and good towing manners. I tow a 12/2 and a 13/4 and dispensed with a stabilizer fitted to the 13/4, I use a Volvo V70 2.5 to tow and occasionally a 1962 Triumph Vitesse 1600. I have a friend with a 13/4 again without a stabilizer and he tows with a VW Sharon. I have towed using the VW Sharon, a 15/4 on the M5 from Bristol to Chester and found at one time I was cruising along at 70 such was the stability without a stabilizer.
I have also found that overtaking or being overtaken has presented no problems with a SAFARI having done about 3,500 miles per annum over the last four years without a stabilizer.
The Kessock bridge, Tamar bridge and others in a gale again have presented no problems.
By the way I also tow a four wheel car trailer again without a stabilzer with my Vintage car on it and at 60 mph it is as steady as a rock.
Just ensure you have about 1 cwt on the nose of the caravan to tow hitch.
Look forward to seeing you at the 2008 SAFARI rally with or without a tow hitch!
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 4 of 15 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert Sent: 10/01/2008 23:48
Hi Den,
I have used a Scott stabiliser for some years. Mainly as our old Thomson certainly needed it as it snaked very easily. Also as we have friends whose caravan fell apart after snaking in high winds with no stabiliser. As my Safari 12/2 came with the fitting for this on the A frame, I simply carried on using it. Don't know what it is like without, but it is extremely stable with the stabiliser.
Cliff
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 5 of 15 in Discussion
From: Denzel10009 Sent: 11/01/2008 00:46
Thanks for that useful advice Sylvester. Den.
On 10 Jan 2008, at 17:50, Sylvesteruk1 wrote:
New Message on Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts
Towing Stabilisers
Reply
Reply to Sender Recommend Message 3 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1
One thing I have found with the SAFARI caravan is their great stability and good towing manners. I tow a 12/2 and a 13/4 and dispensed with a stabilizer fitted to the 13/4, I use a Volvo V70 2.5 to tow and occasionally a 1962 Triumph Vitesse 1600. I have a friend with a 13/4 again without a stabilizer and he tows with a VW Sharon. I have towed using the VW Sharon, a 15/4 on the M5 from Bristol to Chester and found at one time I was cruising along at 70 such was the stability without a stabilizer.
I have also found that overtaking or being overtaken has presented no problems with a SAFARI having done about 3,500 miles per annum over the last four years without a stabilizer.
The Kessock bridge, Tamar bridge and others in a gale again have presented no problems.
By the way I also tow a four wheel car trailer again without a stabilzer with my Vintage car on it and at 60 mph it is as steady as a rock.
Just ensure you have about 1 cwt on the nose of the caravan to tow hitch.
Look forward to seeing you at the 2008 SAFARI rally with or without a tow hitch!
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Recommend Delete Message 6 of 15 in Discussion
From: Denzel10009 Sent: 11/01/2008 13:10
Great, Thanks for that Cliff. I have a U shaped fitting on my A frame and I think it is for a Blade/Leaf spring type stabiliser, I'll check with previous owner what they had. Den
On 10 Jan 2008, at 23:48, Safariconvert wrote:
New Message on Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts
Towing Stabilisers
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Reply to Sender Recommend Message 4 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert
Hi Den,
I have used a Scott stabiliser for some years. Mainly as our old Thomson certainly needed it as it snaked very easily. Also as we have friends whose caravan fell apart after snaking in high winds with no stabiliser. As my Safari 12/2 came with the fitting for this on the A frame, I simply carried on using it. Don't know what it is like without, but it is extremely stable with the stabiliser.
Cliff
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Recommend Delete Message 7 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 14/01/2008 13:38
Hi Den
Towing a caravan without a stabiliser fitted is not good practice and any advice
to the contrary is foolish and irresponsible.
Maybe it's alright being Jack the Lad doing seventy with a van, but consider what
could happen if it was necessary to suddenly brake or if the van wheel hit an
undulation in the road surface. Foolhardy!!!
As a motorist and more so with a van in tow, there is a responsibility to ensure that
your rig is as safe as possible, and to this end stabilisers were designed.
Likewise the wire cable attached to the van handbrake lever, there to apply the van
brakes if by chance it became detatched when being towed. Because your van has
never accidentally become detached it does not imply that the safety cable is not necessary.
So, if you have never experienced instability of the van do not be deceived into thinking
'it could never happen to me'.
There are a couple of letters in the Documents Section that may be of interest.
Regards
ColinC
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 8 of 15 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 14/01/2008 14:30
Colin,
I was pointing out that the outfit was so stable that before I knew it I was doing 70mph, I normally drive my rig at 55 mph max on the motorways and a lot less on minor roads and I have a wire brake cable in case it should break away, you mention that as though I am a complete plonker. All SAFARI brochures show no stabilsers as standard and they, like my car trailer tow extremely well so I will thank you for not calling me "fool hardy". With a RAC competition licence and a CAA jet pilots licence as well as having passed the advanced driving licence I feel at 63 I am not jack the lad either.
How is your caravaning these days as you write with a million miles of towing under your belt?
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 9 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 14/01/2008 15:55
Getting close.
But you have twenty odd years to catch up.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 10 of 15 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 14/01/2008 18:44
While I have a lot of sympathy with Mike on this, there is validity on both sides of the argument.
I am sure we are all in agreement that a stabiliser is not intended to cure an inherently unstable outfit; that should be addressed in other ways. The stabiliser should be used only once that condition has been met, to provide a "safety reserve" for an already stable outfit; to keep it stable in those brief moments when particularly large disturbing elements arise, as per my original reply on this topic. I understand that this is also the advice of the Caravan Club.
Historically, at the time that the earlier classic Safaris were new the legal speed limit for towing vehicles was only 30 mph. Certainly both Colin and I, and I suspect Mike also, started our caravanning days with this limit in place; more modern caravanners may find it hard to imagine towing from Merseyside to Scotland, or to Devon, at a legal maximum of 30 mph, but we did so!
Later, by the early sixties if memory serves correctly, it was raised to 40 mph.
Later still, I think the early seventies, it was conditionally raised to 50 mph, but only for those outfits which qualified. In order to qualify the outfit had to conform to certain weight restrictions; I would now guess (but cannot reliably remember) that the requirement might have been a weight ratio of not more than 100%. Certainly not all outfits qualified, but those that did (which included many but not all caravans) had to display a "50" sticker at the rear of the trailer if they wished to avail themselves of the higher limits.
At about this time a problem of stability then started to emerge, although only at these higher speeds, and it was precisely to address these problems that stabilisers were developed. Undoubtedly this had started to happen by 1974, when my parents bought their Safari 12-2 new, complete with stabiliser on the recommendation of the dealer. The fact that they were available, and were recommended by dealers, suggests that the need had started to emerge by that time.
I can vouch for that date, as that was my first experience of using a stabiliser; they may perhaps have been developed a little earlier, but I can't vouch for that.
Later still, the towing speed limit (on motorways and dual carriageways only, of course) was raised again, to its present 60 mph.
Hence caravans are routinely today towed very significantly faster than was the case when the Safari brochures were printed, and they are also routinely towed on motorways and fast dual carriageways amidst a far higher concentration of fast HGVs and coaches.
Centripetal and centrifugal forces are relevant when a caravan starts swaying, and as Mike will most certainly know (as a retired engineer) these are proportional to the square of the speed.
Windage forces generated when the bow-wave from an HGV or coach strikes a corner of a caravan are also proportional to the square of the speed (this time of the airstream, which in turn is related to the speed of the HGV or coach), and these forces are one of the elements that can start the sway. At the same time as towing speeds of caravans increased, so did the speeds of typical HGVs and coaches.
Thus two important sets of forces are both proportional to the square of the speed. So when the speed of the caravanner increases from 40 mph to 60 mph the centripetal and centrifugal forces are more than doubled; indeed the factor is two and a quarter. Likewise the bow-wave forces generated by passing HGVs and coaches have similarly increased. This increase is enough to raise a situation which was never originally a problem into one where a potentially lethal problem may arise if one fails to take steps to control it.
Hence whatever may have been the case in the far more gently demands of the seventies and eighties, and the need was already identified even then, at today's speeds and in today's traffic conditions it is undoubtedly best practice to use a stabiliser.
I personally will always use one, if available, but I do occasionally tow with a combination where it is not available, and I then use appropriate caution - which may in some instances involve travelling at a lower speed. Nonetheless I have twice been caught out when not using one, and the account of both occasions is instructive. I recount these stories against myself, and despite my long experience I still learned from them.
The first time was towing my parents' 14-2 behind my Volvo 240. Both our outfits had stabilisers, but of different types, and the fittings were incompatible, and on this occasion I was towing their caravan with my car - so could not fit a stabiliser. I wasn't unduly concerned, because their 14-2 was such a lightweight compared to my own 17-2, so I anticipated no problems.
On the return trip from Devon, in an otherwise routine and uneventful tow, we were travelling along a straight bit of motorway when quite out of the blue we suddenly went into moderately severe snaking. At the time I was far too busy retrieving the situation, which thankfully I was able to do without incident, to concern myself with what had triggered it; it could have been a passing HGV but nearly twenty years later I have no recollection of that. But very clearly, even as a highly experienced towing driver, something which I had not forseen had triggered the snaking, and I then had to use all my skill and experience to retrieve the situation. I strongly suspect that a stabiliser would have helped significantly.
The other occasion was towards the end of a tour of the Highlands, woting my 17-2. A day before the start of the tour another driver had used my car as a means of stopping at red traffic lights, thereby writing off both vehicles, so her insurers had hired a Discovery for us to enable us to still have our planned holiday.
That Discovery was a revelation as a tow vehicle, which is the direct reason why I later bought one myself, and I am now on my second one, but it was not fitted for a stabiliser. However the car was so very stable, and so very much heavier than even the 17-2, that I felt no need of one.
Coming down the M74, gently downhill, I overtook a slower vehicle, and - somewhat to my surprise after towing perhaps 1000 miles with that outfit - I experienced significant sway as I made the lane change back to the inside after overtaking him. Nothing serious, but nonetheless enough to be very obvious, and again I had to immediately take steps to retrieve the situation.
So at today's speeds and in today's traffic I stick to my recommendation: first ensure that the outfit is inherently stable, then ALSO routinely use a stabiliser to provide a reserve of safety.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 11 of 15 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 15/01/2008 09:07
Oliver,
You have raised some good points however as a young "jack the lad" I was a keen sailor and white water canoeist being a member of the Chester Sailing and Canoe Club. Among the members was the late Colin Witter and his three sons Brendan, Robin and Rodney all were part of the Witter tow bar company. Brendan use to compete in timed Caravan Rallies through out the UK in the 60`s and some of these rallies were on the race track such as Oulton Park. From this Witters were the first to come up with an anti snaking device called the Mongoose ( in real life an animal that killed snakes and old caravanners). Brendan had found that some caravans had very poor stability at speed where as others were excellant. So the Mongoose was used when race rallying with poor unstable caravans.
Regards
"Mike the lad"
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 12 of 15 in Discussion
From: Denzel10009 Sent: 15/01/2008 10:22
Many Thanks Colin.
Shine brightly!
Denis Jevon
djevon@totalise.co.uk
www.enviroheal.com
www.emotionalhealing.me.uk
On 14 Jan 2008, at 13:38, Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts wrote:
New Message on Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts
Towing Stabilisers
Reply
Recommend Message 7 in Discussion
From: ColinC
Hi Den
Towing a caravan without a stabiliser fitted is not good practice and any advice
to the contrary is foolish and irresponsible.
Maybe it's alright being Jack the Lad doing seventy with a van, but consider what
could happen if it was necessary to suddenly brake or if the van wheel hit an
undulation in the road surface. Foolhardy!!!
As a motorist and more so with a van in tow, there is a responsibility to ensure that
your rig is as safe as possible, and to this end stabilisers were designed.
Likewise the wire cable attached to the van handbrake lever, there to apply the van
brakes if by chance it became detatched when being towed. Because your van has
never accidentally become detached it does not imply that the safety cable is not necessary.
So, if you have never experienced instability of the van do not be deceived into thinking
'it could never happen to me'.
There are a couple of letters in the Documents Section that may be of interest.
Regards
ColinC
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Reply
Recommend Delete Message 13 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 15/01/2008 12:16
Yes Mike, I have used a Witter Mongoose Tow Ball since they were first marketed. As described in the Safari 1 Doc. in the Documents Section. Until you reminded I had forgotten the name.<o:p></o:p>
However, they were only an anti-snaking device and did not address the pitching element of instability. <o:p></o:p>
Pitching can occur at low road speeds as we experienced very early in my caravanning days and is most uncomfortable. In the late 50’s we were touring in Scotland, near Fort William, and decided to take the A830 to Mallaig, the Road to the Isles as it was romantically called. Well, the road undulates so severely that we were all sea sick (for want of a better expression) and had to abort the expedition. <o:p></o:p>
Leaf spring stabilisers dampen this instability hence when they became available I used both. Whilst the Scott Stabiliser dampens both elements of instability, I still retained the Mongoose. As we say in <st1:place>Yorkshire</st1:place> ‘Belt and Braces’.<o:p></o:p>
Regards<o:p></o:p>
ColinC<o:p></o:p>
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 14 of 15 in Discussion
From: ColinC Sent: 15/01/2008 15:17
TOWING STABILISERS<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Hi Oliver.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p> </o:p>
Many thanks for your contributions on the above subject.<o:p></o:p>
Regarding destabilisation caused when being overtaken by a high sided vehicle:<o:p></o:p>
My experience is that the low pressure created at the rear of the passing vehicle created a greater disturbance than the bow wave.<o:p></o:p>
Perhaps because having been pushed away by the increase in pressure, returning to the normal position was accelerated by the reduction in pressure, the beginning of snaking instability.<o:p></o:p>
An interesting subject, I’m surprised that someone hasn’t researched it, or perhaps they have?<o:p></o:p>
Regards<o:p></o:p>
ColinC<o:p></o:p>