Post by Brian M on Feb 1, 2009 10:58:52 GMT
From: Doormat_no_more1 (Original Message) Sent: 02/04/2007 21:33
hi i have a cosalt safari i think its 1985 i know its not a classic but it has no water container but has a cascade mk1.i cant find any info on if this is right is it suppose to have a water container my last caravan had it under the seat.not sure how the cascade works either.please adsvise before i blow myself up...cheers
First Previous 2-16 of 16 Next Last
Reply
Recommend Message 2 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 01:23
I am immensely surprised if it is in fact a 1985 model and the Cascade is a Mk 1; Safaris were fitting the Mk 2 in 1981.
If it really is the Mk 1 the hot water tank will be a fairly squat cylinder (lagged), with the axis vertical, and it will vent to underneath the caravan. The lagging will look like a miniature version of the normal domestic lagging jacket. You will probably have a thermostat control knob inside the caravan; certainly the one on the Cotswold that I owned in the late 80s had this.
From memory, there is a single control box, on which is a fairly ovbious on/off switch, plus the thermostat knob, and three LEDs - red, yellow, green.
Ensure you have gas - i.e. cylinder connected, system purged of air. To do the latter, turn on one of the rings on your gas hob, with a match or - better - a butane-type gas lighter burning under the jet, and wait until the emerging gas lights and then burns properly.
Then have a look around to see whether there is an isolator gas in the line to the heater; if so ensure that this is turned on. I personally feel that if the system is in good condition it is safe to leave this tap permanently on; its only use is to isolate the supply if the heater is taken out for maintenance or repair. If of course the system is not in good condition it is not safe to use anyway, and needs immediate repair ...
Ensure you have the cylinder full of water; i.e. water connected, and purge the system of air. Purge the cold system first - pump running, and taps wide open - then when you have a continuous stream of water close the cold taps and similarly purge the hot system.
The heater has automated electronic ignition. Once you are satisfied that you have both water in the tank and a supply of gas, and assuming that you also have the batter connected (you will normally need this anyway for the water pump), switch the heater on. It should light automatically, but there may still be a little air in the gas feed to the heater; in that case you will hear a rapid clicking from the electronic ignition; if it doesn't light within about 10 seconds switch off, leave for 2 minutes, and then try again.
When the burner lights you will find that the yellow LED comes on, to tell you that the tank is heating up. When in use, this LED will also come on when you draw water off and the temperature drops to the point where the burner relights. When it is up to temperature the green LED comes on. If there is a fault, including no gas (e.g. if you have run out of it) the red LED lights.
No electric power of course results in no LEDs, and the gas supply to the burner is automatically cut off.
The small round knob is for the thermostat; it is uncalibrated but fairly effective.
As far as I am aware the Mk 1 was not available in a GLE (Gas and Electric) version.
If however you have the Cascade Mk 2 the principles are similar, but with the following differences:
1 the cylinder is substantially larger, with its axis horizontal, and it vents through the side wall of the caravan rather than under the floor.
2 the thermostat is not adjustable from inside the caravan; I THINK that certain models have a thumbwheel adjustment accessible from outside the caravan after removing the cowling, while other models are not adjustable. The distinction may depend only on date of manufacture.
3 The lagging is a rigid expanded polystyrend casing, made in to mating parts, which enclose the cylinder.
4 There is a clearly visible and very characteristic square cowling on the side of the caravan where the exhaust gases vent.
5 The Mk 2 was available in both a gas only version and a GLE. Safaris fitted the GLE as standard.
I understand that parts for the Mk 2 are still available, but those for the Mk 1 have not been available for many years.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 01:25
Sorry, I meant an isolator tap, not an isolator gas ...
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 16 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 03/04/2007 07:15
At our Safari meet last year at Wicksteed, Gary from Arc Systems came and gave several of us a "Gas Check" on our Safaris. He found a gas leak on my water heater that fortunately I had never used.
He is a carver specialist and you can find him at : www.arcsystems.biz/
Mention that I gave you his contact details on this group.
Brian
Reply
Recommend Message 5 of 16 in Discussion
From: Doormat_no_more1 Sent: 03/04/2007 08:16
hi
thanks for your detailed explanation..its definetly mk1 it says so on it.yes small copper?cylinder connected underneath with mimi red insulation.the metal tag on outside says 1985 so i can only assume its correct.i will get a friend to check it out thats wayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond me.
thanks again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Reply
Recommend Message 6 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 20:28
That description certainly tallies with the Cascade Mk 1.
But I am mystified at it being fitted to a 1985 caravan.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 7 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 20:57
Water containers:
I am not surprised that your caravan doesn't have an onboard water tank; few do. The vast majority of caravans, of most makes - Safaris included - were never fitted with onboard water tanks. The few exceptions were usually retro-fitted, and I do not recollect seeing any reference to them in any Safari literature.
There are, or were, a small minority of makes that had onboard tanks fitted as standard; I understand that these include certain Royale and also Castleton models.
The much more usual system is a freestanding external tank, either a roller type (of which the headline trade name is Aquaroll, although there are also other makes; Aquaroll don't quite have a monopoly market) or a retangular type with a wheeled carrier.
There are pros and cons to having an onboard tank. Well, I am prepared to believe there may be some pros, but I have yet to discover them; I have found only the cons.
They work best in motorhomes, where very often the vehicle is moved at sufficiently frequent intervals for it to be no hardship to take the vehicle to the service point for refilling the tank (and emptying the waste), and where the payload is sufficiently generous for the weight of water carried not to be an issue. In practical terms it does then mean that if you stop for a coffee, or for lunch, while on a journey you have all the water (and the waste) immediately ready for use, without having to set up containers and without having to purge the system of air.
However with a towed caravan there are major problems with an onboard tank. Once the caravan is sited it is a significant disruption to move it, and you don't want to do that on perhaps a daily basis just to refill your water tank. So one often ends up collecting the water from the service point in an Aquaroll, and then presumably pumping it into the onboard tank, from which it is pumped again when you want to draw it off. It seems more sensible to pump it direct from the Aquaroll when you want to draw it off, and save one stage of pumping (and battery drain), and save the storage space taken up by the onboard tank.
Even if you are moving daily, and just stopping for one-night halts, there are still problems with an onboard tank. If you travel with it filled, it erodes the caravan payload, or alternatively it creates excess weight in the caravan, and is additional load for the car to tow. If you travel with it empty, what do you do when you arrive at the site? - normal impulse for most people is to choose their pitch and site the 'van, not to take the 'van first to the service point to refill the onboard tank. And once you have sited the 'van you of course have the same problem as in the paragraph above.
However there are as many different ways of caravanning as there are owners, and I can concede that the decision is essentially a matter of your caravanning lifestyle; it may well be that they work well for some people. After all, caravan accessory shops do sometimes stock them, so one presumes that they are making at least some sales.
The only caravan I have ever owned which had an onboard water tank was my 1978 Safari 17-2, and I took out the tank within about the first week!
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 8 of 16 in Discussion
From: Doormat_no_more1 Sent: 03/04/2007 22:10
thanks for you indepth reply.i totally agree what you say about the onboasrd water tank.plugged battery in today all lights came on so theres a start.electric plug sockets work so more bonus...not convinced my gas will work though so to save the local firemen a journey i will for the time being take my two ring calor gas cooker with me...i'll rough it!!
thanks again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
Reply
Recommend Message 9 of 16 in Discussion
From: A_Capella1 Sent: 05/04/2007 00:54
I fully endorse your concern for safety, and concur with you not chancing your gas supply while you have doubts about it. And I note from an earlier message that you were going to get a friend to check it out.
But, once it is checked (and repaired if necessary) you really should be able to use it, and not have to "rough it" within the caravan.
Equally there are a fair number of other safety-related items that need regular and skilled checking, plus a number that even if not safety-related are at least pertinent to either the longevity or the correct operation of your caravan. All of these come under the heading of the annual service.
So you know what I am going to say next; the caravan really does need to be serviced annually. After all, you wouldn't dream of running your car without regular servicing, ... I hope ... ...
There are basically two approaches to servicing. For those with the appropriate skills and tools, DIY is perfectly satisfactory. This is contrary to the impression that the Caravan Club seems to give, but I stress that the amateur undertaking DIY servicing needs to be able to work to at least professional standards, if not better.
In that context, I have read articles in the Caravan Club Magazine suggesting that amateurs cannot undertake servicing because certain nuts have to be set to exactly the right torque. Well, I'm sorry, but these days if a torque wrench isn't part of one's standard toolkit one has not right to call oneself a DIY engineer, or even mechanic, let alone be thinking about DIY servicing - but most competent amateurs do own torque wrenches and they routinely use them for such tasks.
There are plenty of skilled amateurs who have ample engineering ability, but equally there are many whose skills lie in other directions, and there are those (and I am now one) who, although fully capable of DIY servicing, now (because of age, or constraints of time, or being no longer willing to go grubbing around on the floor underneath the 'van) prefer to contract it out.
Rant over! You make it quite clear from your postings that your skills lie in other directions, but the friend whom you cite may or may not be up to doing the annual service. But if not, take the caravan to a reputable dealer; the cost should be modest, and it is money well spent.
However one way or the other, the job needs doing, and ideally it should be done annually.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 10 of 16 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 05/04/2007 09:54
Whilst I agree servicing is important there is an adage "if it aint broken don`t fix it" in today`s world maintenance is pretty minimal. Take my modern Volvo V70, I managed to get copies of the manufacturers schedules and everything is check, check, check with only engine oils and filters changed. Now a torque loaded nyloc nut is not going to come loose but all this kind of thing is on the schedule.
Back to modern day jet aircraft and maintenance is governed by hours/landings and callendar and a perfectly serviceable aircraft comes in for maintenance. It is pulled apart and rebuilt in accordance with the manufacturers schedule. The guy`s doing the job comply but know that in 20 years certain checks never throw up defects but it is still done. The aircraft goes back into service and may take weeks to settle down with all sorts of snags cropping up. Its called the "twiddle factor" had you not broken down the system to do the check and disturb it then it would have been trouble free.
Torque loading is a relatively new idea as my pre war MG `s can testify nothing is torque loaded indeed in the 1960`s I worked on a very complex naval fighter bomber the Sea Vixen and nothing was torque loaded on it. It was left to the mechanics skill to to tighten a nut or bolt with correct length of spanner etc.
Do you remember right up to the late 1960`s removing car wheel bearings and repacking with grease, not any more, when did you last see a modern car on maintenance have its wheel bearings removed and yet we still use the same type of bearings and seals. No, someone said what a waste of time and money and so it was dropped from the schedule.
So when you next remove the caravan wheel bearings, drop them on the soil, clean them with a fluffy rag and pack them with grease with you sweaty hands ask yourself is this really necessary.
Mike
Reply
Recommend Message 11 of 16 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 05/04/2007 10:37
I have to agree with Mike on this one, I read that an annual service on a modern Caravan will cost around £250-300, not far off what a lot of us paid for our Safaris!
Has anyone taken their Safari in for a dealer service - if so what did it cost?
I am a competent amateur mechanic and will carry out my own service this week on my Safari that has not moved since last October.
I will remove the wheels and drums and check the bearings that were replaced two years ago. The split pins will be replaced as a matter of course. The tyres will be carefully inspected, especially the walls.
The tow hitch and handbrake will be checked and greased as necessary, as will the long threads on the "feet".
I will go round and check all the external lights, (which I do before each trip anyway)the internal 12v and 240v lights will also be checked. As mentioned in another thread my gas system was fully checked last year so this year I will do a visual check of all pipes and joins.
The water system will also be checked for leaks and good operation of taps.
Anybody got any further suggestions?
Brian
Reply
Recommend Message 12 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 05/04/2007 13:18
I can't reliably remember what I paid last year, and in any case I had other work done at the same time, but my local dealer (Harringtons) offer three grades of service, Bronze, Silver and Gold.
The Bronze is basically just the running chassis, i.e. the road vehicle aspects, and my slightly vague recollection is that this is around £120. The Gold has a very full specification, including bodywork and all the domestic functions (e.g. servicing the gas appliances and system, mains and 12V electrics), etc, etc., and from very vague recollection this is significantly under £200.
Any parts needed, and putting right any defects uncovered that go beyond checking and adjustment, are of course extra to this.
I agree with Brian that if you are reasonably competent many servicing tasks are well within the range of the DIY practitioner, and even the gas and mains electrics are a long way short of rocket science - but you do need to know what you are doing. Brian, and Mike, and I, and several others clearly do know what we are doing, but some do not; as I tactfully (I hope) put it, their skills lie in different areas. These include the original enquirer to this thread, by the member's own description.
And while I can (still) do my own servicing, and may yet do it this year (because it has thus far been a thin year for business, although it is now picking up apace), age and the time it takes me is nowadays a disincentive to doing it myself. And without the benefit of the premises and plant (i.e. lifts or pits) of a dealer's workshops it takes me a lot longer than I would expect it to take a dealer.
The time it takes me is relevant for two reasons; first because I have other interests and other commitments, and secondly because doing my own vehicle servicing is not necessarily good business sense. In a good year for business, in the time it would take me to service a vehicle myself, whether car or caravan, I can alternatively earn more by plying my profession than I would have to pay a dealer to service the vehicle.
For anyone who is self-employed, as I am (part-time and in semi-retirement), time is most certainly money.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 13 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 05/04/2007 13:36
I agree that setting nuts or bolts to a specified torque did not really start to become standard practice until the seventies, but from then on it was increasingly the accepted standard. And the late seventies and very early eighties coincides exactly with the date of most of our classic Safaris.
I agree also a lot of modern servicing is pre-emptive, lubricating and checking rather than adjusting and replacing, but that does not make it any less important. In many cases the lubrication is obviously necessary, and (unlike the aircraft scenario that Mike describes) the checks are usually external to the mechanism and may well forestall a potentially serious problem.
I agree that these days wheelbearings are not routinely repacked with grease, but the cessation of that practice that happens to coincide fairly accurately in my experience with the onset of wheel bearing failure at high mileages. Perhaps this makes my very point about lubrication being necessary!
I have only once in my life experienced wheel bearing failure on an older vehicle, in 1969 on a 1939 Rover, i.e. thirty years old and of unknown service history but which had been allowed to fall derelict before I rescued it. By contrast I have lost count of the number of front wheelbearing failures on a succession of Volvo 240s, at a time when they were current model cars, and most of them known to have been fully serviced throughout their lives, albeit that they were high mileage by the time failures occurred.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 14 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 05/04/2007 14:24
> "Anybody got any further suggestions?"
Yes. You posted my schedule (derived and expanded from the chassis manual) as an attachment 4 years ago. See, on the General board, “Awning & diy service advice sought” (date of latest messgae in this string 12/3/05); Message 2 in this string and the attachment to Message 4 give a great deal of service information.
Within your description, I presume that you will adjust the brakes, check the operation of the damper at the tow hitch, grease and oil the jockey wheel as necessary.
Plus a visual check that the suspension is sitting at the correct height, and no sign of anything being insecure; like Mike I rather prefer this to actually releasing nuts and re-torqueing them up again. This includes checking the body to chassis fastenings. Also deal with any rust found on the chassis; wire brush and paint if you have the painted chassis. The very late Safaris had galvanised chassis, so should have no problems in this respect.
Clean and lubricate the fold-away step if you have one.
External lights; I presume that your check includes actually removing the lenses, clean out any grot on the electrical components and perhaps apply a smear of Vaseline, replace any bulbs that are starting to look blackened (even if they are still working) - sorry, Mike, filaments(!), wash the lenses if the interiors have become caked with dirt, check the condition of the rubber seals under the lenses (if perished, one can improvise a replacement, or alternatively bed the lens down onto a mastic base).
Gas system; if (like me) you don't want to bother setting up a manometer test the visual check of pipes and joints can be enhanced with the use of soapy water (look for bubbles) to check for escaping gas. Worth checking also that all burners operate correctly, especially when all appliances are in use simultaneously; regulators can become gummed up, and jets can become blocked. Visual check also for obstruction of flues (fridge, water heater, space heater).
Problems with regulators can arise surprisingly rapidly if you have had the bad luck to have a batch of contaminated fuel; it happened to me a couple of years ago, and the regulator was so new (only about 2 years old) that at first I made the mistake of assuming that that was one part of the system that was above suspicion. As a result I had an entire summer holiday struggling with a water heater that kept going out, and an oven that took a couple of hours or more to cook a dinner which should have taken about 40 minutes.
Check also the battery connections (corrosion, fraying, etc. etc.) and check for corrosion around the main battery fuse.
Safety check on the complete 240V system, not merely checking that lights work; check that the trip switch works correctly, visual check that the earth bond/s are in good condition.
Check that the water pump is operating correctly and efficiently, with no obvious faults; external immersion types sometimes have problems with the electrical connection, onboard diaphragm types sometimes have problems in old age of air leaking in and thus reducing the suction.
Door hinges are sometimes very prone to corrode, and thus stiffen up. On my 1978 17-2 I rearranged the hinges to allow each half of the door to be lifted off, once opened, which made servicing the hinges quick and easy; if you can't separate the hinges it can be almost impossible to keep corrosion at bay. On another Safari I replaced the mild steel pins with stainless.
If pushed, or simply if more convenient, some of these checks can be made simply by just sufficiently acute observation while the caravan is in use; in many cases we are not expecting sudden catastrophic failure, so just be aware if something is working less than perfectly, and then rectify when convenient.
Dealer servicing schedules are drawn up on the basis that the owner will want everything working 100% when he gets the 'van back, and he may not have the knowledge or the prerception to notice if something is working less than perfectly, or the ability to deal with it if he does notice. If you are using the 'van regularly, a lot of the servicing can be devolved to continual awareness and acute observation, linked to ongoing maintenance, as you use it; this is a very well-established approach in yachting, where the demands on the vessel are much higher than those on a caravan, and where far more is safety-related.
Oliver
hi i have a cosalt safari i think its 1985 i know its not a classic but it has no water container but has a cascade mk1.i cant find any info on if this is right is it suppose to have a water container my last caravan had it under the seat.not sure how the cascade works either.please adsvise before i blow myself up...cheers
First Previous 2-16 of 16 Next Last
Reply
Recommend Message 2 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 01:23
I am immensely surprised if it is in fact a 1985 model and the Cascade is a Mk 1; Safaris were fitting the Mk 2 in 1981.
If it really is the Mk 1 the hot water tank will be a fairly squat cylinder (lagged), with the axis vertical, and it will vent to underneath the caravan. The lagging will look like a miniature version of the normal domestic lagging jacket. You will probably have a thermostat control knob inside the caravan; certainly the one on the Cotswold that I owned in the late 80s had this.
From memory, there is a single control box, on which is a fairly ovbious on/off switch, plus the thermostat knob, and three LEDs - red, yellow, green.
Ensure you have gas - i.e. cylinder connected, system purged of air. To do the latter, turn on one of the rings on your gas hob, with a match or - better - a butane-type gas lighter burning under the jet, and wait until the emerging gas lights and then burns properly.
Then have a look around to see whether there is an isolator gas in the line to the heater; if so ensure that this is turned on. I personally feel that if the system is in good condition it is safe to leave this tap permanently on; its only use is to isolate the supply if the heater is taken out for maintenance or repair. If of course the system is not in good condition it is not safe to use anyway, and needs immediate repair ...
Ensure you have the cylinder full of water; i.e. water connected, and purge the system of air. Purge the cold system first - pump running, and taps wide open - then when you have a continuous stream of water close the cold taps and similarly purge the hot system.
The heater has automated electronic ignition. Once you are satisfied that you have both water in the tank and a supply of gas, and assuming that you also have the batter connected (you will normally need this anyway for the water pump), switch the heater on. It should light automatically, but there may still be a little air in the gas feed to the heater; in that case you will hear a rapid clicking from the electronic ignition; if it doesn't light within about 10 seconds switch off, leave for 2 minutes, and then try again.
When the burner lights you will find that the yellow LED comes on, to tell you that the tank is heating up. When in use, this LED will also come on when you draw water off and the temperature drops to the point where the burner relights. When it is up to temperature the green LED comes on. If there is a fault, including no gas (e.g. if you have run out of it) the red LED lights.
No electric power of course results in no LEDs, and the gas supply to the burner is automatically cut off.
The small round knob is for the thermostat; it is uncalibrated but fairly effective.
As far as I am aware the Mk 1 was not available in a GLE (Gas and Electric) version.
If however you have the Cascade Mk 2 the principles are similar, but with the following differences:
1 the cylinder is substantially larger, with its axis horizontal, and it vents through the side wall of the caravan rather than under the floor.
2 the thermostat is not adjustable from inside the caravan; I THINK that certain models have a thumbwheel adjustment accessible from outside the caravan after removing the cowling, while other models are not adjustable. The distinction may depend only on date of manufacture.
3 The lagging is a rigid expanded polystyrend casing, made in to mating parts, which enclose the cylinder.
4 There is a clearly visible and very characteristic square cowling on the side of the caravan where the exhaust gases vent.
5 The Mk 2 was available in both a gas only version and a GLE. Safaris fitted the GLE as standard.
I understand that parts for the Mk 2 are still available, but those for the Mk 1 have not been available for many years.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 01:25
Sorry, I meant an isolator tap, not an isolator gas ...
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 16 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 03/04/2007 07:15
At our Safari meet last year at Wicksteed, Gary from Arc Systems came and gave several of us a "Gas Check" on our Safaris. He found a gas leak on my water heater that fortunately I had never used.
He is a carver specialist and you can find him at : www.arcsystems.biz/
Mention that I gave you his contact details on this group.
Brian
Reply
Recommend Message 5 of 16 in Discussion
From: Doormat_no_more1 Sent: 03/04/2007 08:16
hi
thanks for your detailed explanation..its definetly mk1 it says so on it.yes small copper?cylinder connected underneath with mimi red insulation.the metal tag on outside says 1985 so i can only assume its correct.i will get a friend to check it out thats wayyyyyyyyyyyyy beyond me.
thanks again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Reply
Recommend Message 6 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 20:28
That description certainly tallies with the Cascade Mk 1.
But I am mystified at it being fitted to a 1985 caravan.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 7 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 03/04/2007 20:57
Water containers:
I am not surprised that your caravan doesn't have an onboard water tank; few do. The vast majority of caravans, of most makes - Safaris included - were never fitted with onboard water tanks. The few exceptions were usually retro-fitted, and I do not recollect seeing any reference to them in any Safari literature.
There are, or were, a small minority of makes that had onboard tanks fitted as standard; I understand that these include certain Royale and also Castleton models.
The much more usual system is a freestanding external tank, either a roller type (of which the headline trade name is Aquaroll, although there are also other makes; Aquaroll don't quite have a monopoly market) or a retangular type with a wheeled carrier.
There are pros and cons to having an onboard tank. Well, I am prepared to believe there may be some pros, but I have yet to discover them; I have found only the cons.
They work best in motorhomes, where very often the vehicle is moved at sufficiently frequent intervals for it to be no hardship to take the vehicle to the service point for refilling the tank (and emptying the waste), and where the payload is sufficiently generous for the weight of water carried not to be an issue. In practical terms it does then mean that if you stop for a coffee, or for lunch, while on a journey you have all the water (and the waste) immediately ready for use, without having to set up containers and without having to purge the system of air.
However with a towed caravan there are major problems with an onboard tank. Once the caravan is sited it is a significant disruption to move it, and you don't want to do that on perhaps a daily basis just to refill your water tank. So one often ends up collecting the water from the service point in an Aquaroll, and then presumably pumping it into the onboard tank, from which it is pumped again when you want to draw it off. It seems more sensible to pump it direct from the Aquaroll when you want to draw it off, and save one stage of pumping (and battery drain), and save the storage space taken up by the onboard tank.
Even if you are moving daily, and just stopping for one-night halts, there are still problems with an onboard tank. If you travel with it filled, it erodes the caravan payload, or alternatively it creates excess weight in the caravan, and is additional load for the car to tow. If you travel with it empty, what do you do when you arrive at the site? - normal impulse for most people is to choose their pitch and site the 'van, not to take the 'van first to the service point to refill the onboard tank. And once you have sited the 'van you of course have the same problem as in the paragraph above.
However there are as many different ways of caravanning as there are owners, and I can concede that the decision is essentially a matter of your caravanning lifestyle; it may well be that they work well for some people. After all, caravan accessory shops do sometimes stock them, so one presumes that they are making at least some sales.
The only caravan I have ever owned which had an onboard water tank was my 1978 Safari 17-2, and I took out the tank within about the first week!
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 8 of 16 in Discussion
From: Doormat_no_more1 Sent: 03/04/2007 22:10
thanks for you indepth reply.i totally agree what you say about the onboasrd water tank.plugged battery in today all lights came on so theres a start.electric plug sockets work so more bonus...not convinced my gas will work though so to save the local firemen a journey i will for the time being take my two ring calor gas cooker with me...i'll rough it!!
thanks again
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
Reply
Recommend Message 9 of 16 in Discussion
From: A_Capella1 Sent: 05/04/2007 00:54
I fully endorse your concern for safety, and concur with you not chancing your gas supply while you have doubts about it. And I note from an earlier message that you were going to get a friend to check it out.
But, once it is checked (and repaired if necessary) you really should be able to use it, and not have to "rough it" within the caravan.
Equally there are a fair number of other safety-related items that need regular and skilled checking, plus a number that even if not safety-related are at least pertinent to either the longevity or the correct operation of your caravan. All of these come under the heading of the annual service.
So you know what I am going to say next; the caravan really does need to be serviced annually. After all, you wouldn't dream of running your car without regular servicing, ... I hope ... ...
There are basically two approaches to servicing. For those with the appropriate skills and tools, DIY is perfectly satisfactory. This is contrary to the impression that the Caravan Club seems to give, but I stress that the amateur undertaking DIY servicing needs to be able to work to at least professional standards, if not better.
In that context, I have read articles in the Caravan Club Magazine suggesting that amateurs cannot undertake servicing because certain nuts have to be set to exactly the right torque. Well, I'm sorry, but these days if a torque wrench isn't part of one's standard toolkit one has not right to call oneself a DIY engineer, or even mechanic, let alone be thinking about DIY servicing - but most competent amateurs do own torque wrenches and they routinely use them for such tasks.
There are plenty of skilled amateurs who have ample engineering ability, but equally there are many whose skills lie in other directions, and there are those (and I am now one) who, although fully capable of DIY servicing, now (because of age, or constraints of time, or being no longer willing to go grubbing around on the floor underneath the 'van) prefer to contract it out.
Rant over! You make it quite clear from your postings that your skills lie in other directions, but the friend whom you cite may or may not be up to doing the annual service. But if not, take the caravan to a reputable dealer; the cost should be modest, and it is money well spent.
However one way or the other, the job needs doing, and ideally it should be done annually.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 10 of 16 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 05/04/2007 09:54
Whilst I agree servicing is important there is an adage "if it aint broken don`t fix it" in today`s world maintenance is pretty minimal. Take my modern Volvo V70, I managed to get copies of the manufacturers schedules and everything is check, check, check with only engine oils and filters changed. Now a torque loaded nyloc nut is not going to come loose but all this kind of thing is on the schedule.
Back to modern day jet aircraft and maintenance is governed by hours/landings and callendar and a perfectly serviceable aircraft comes in for maintenance. It is pulled apart and rebuilt in accordance with the manufacturers schedule. The guy`s doing the job comply but know that in 20 years certain checks never throw up defects but it is still done. The aircraft goes back into service and may take weeks to settle down with all sorts of snags cropping up. Its called the "twiddle factor" had you not broken down the system to do the check and disturb it then it would have been trouble free.
Torque loading is a relatively new idea as my pre war MG `s can testify nothing is torque loaded indeed in the 1960`s I worked on a very complex naval fighter bomber the Sea Vixen and nothing was torque loaded on it. It was left to the mechanics skill to to tighten a nut or bolt with correct length of spanner etc.
Do you remember right up to the late 1960`s removing car wheel bearings and repacking with grease, not any more, when did you last see a modern car on maintenance have its wheel bearings removed and yet we still use the same type of bearings and seals. No, someone said what a waste of time and money and so it was dropped from the schedule.
So when you next remove the caravan wheel bearings, drop them on the soil, clean them with a fluffy rag and pack them with grease with you sweaty hands ask yourself is this really necessary.
Mike
Reply
Recommend Message 11 of 16 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 05/04/2007 10:37
I have to agree with Mike on this one, I read that an annual service on a modern Caravan will cost around £250-300, not far off what a lot of us paid for our Safaris!
Has anyone taken their Safari in for a dealer service - if so what did it cost?
I am a competent amateur mechanic and will carry out my own service this week on my Safari that has not moved since last October.
I will remove the wheels and drums and check the bearings that were replaced two years ago. The split pins will be replaced as a matter of course. The tyres will be carefully inspected, especially the walls.
The tow hitch and handbrake will be checked and greased as necessary, as will the long threads on the "feet".
I will go round and check all the external lights, (which I do before each trip anyway)the internal 12v and 240v lights will also be checked. As mentioned in another thread my gas system was fully checked last year so this year I will do a visual check of all pipes and joins.
The water system will also be checked for leaks and good operation of taps.
Anybody got any further suggestions?
Brian
Reply
Recommend Message 12 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 05/04/2007 13:18
I can't reliably remember what I paid last year, and in any case I had other work done at the same time, but my local dealer (Harringtons) offer three grades of service, Bronze, Silver and Gold.
The Bronze is basically just the running chassis, i.e. the road vehicle aspects, and my slightly vague recollection is that this is around £120. The Gold has a very full specification, including bodywork and all the domestic functions (e.g. servicing the gas appliances and system, mains and 12V electrics), etc, etc., and from very vague recollection this is significantly under £200.
Any parts needed, and putting right any defects uncovered that go beyond checking and adjustment, are of course extra to this.
I agree with Brian that if you are reasonably competent many servicing tasks are well within the range of the DIY practitioner, and even the gas and mains electrics are a long way short of rocket science - but you do need to know what you are doing. Brian, and Mike, and I, and several others clearly do know what we are doing, but some do not; as I tactfully (I hope) put it, their skills lie in different areas. These include the original enquirer to this thread, by the member's own description.
And while I can (still) do my own servicing, and may yet do it this year (because it has thus far been a thin year for business, although it is now picking up apace), age and the time it takes me is nowadays a disincentive to doing it myself. And without the benefit of the premises and plant (i.e. lifts or pits) of a dealer's workshops it takes me a lot longer than I would expect it to take a dealer.
The time it takes me is relevant for two reasons; first because I have other interests and other commitments, and secondly because doing my own vehicle servicing is not necessarily good business sense. In a good year for business, in the time it would take me to service a vehicle myself, whether car or caravan, I can alternatively earn more by plying my profession than I would have to pay a dealer to service the vehicle.
For anyone who is self-employed, as I am (part-time and in semi-retirement), time is most certainly money.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 13 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 05/04/2007 13:36
I agree that setting nuts or bolts to a specified torque did not really start to become standard practice until the seventies, but from then on it was increasingly the accepted standard. And the late seventies and very early eighties coincides exactly with the date of most of our classic Safaris.
I agree also a lot of modern servicing is pre-emptive, lubricating and checking rather than adjusting and replacing, but that does not make it any less important. In many cases the lubrication is obviously necessary, and (unlike the aircraft scenario that Mike describes) the checks are usually external to the mechanism and may well forestall a potentially serious problem.
I agree that these days wheelbearings are not routinely repacked with grease, but the cessation of that practice that happens to coincide fairly accurately in my experience with the onset of wheel bearing failure at high mileages. Perhaps this makes my very point about lubrication being necessary!
I have only once in my life experienced wheel bearing failure on an older vehicle, in 1969 on a 1939 Rover, i.e. thirty years old and of unknown service history but which had been allowed to fall derelict before I rescued it. By contrast I have lost count of the number of front wheelbearing failures on a succession of Volvo 240s, at a time when they were current model cars, and most of them known to have been fully serviced throughout their lives, albeit that they were high mileage by the time failures occurred.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 14 of 16 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 05/04/2007 14:24
> "Anybody got any further suggestions?"
Yes. You posted my schedule (derived and expanded from the chassis manual) as an attachment 4 years ago. See, on the General board, “Awning & diy service advice sought” (date of latest messgae in this string 12/3/05); Message 2 in this string and the attachment to Message 4 give a great deal of service information.
Within your description, I presume that you will adjust the brakes, check the operation of the damper at the tow hitch, grease and oil the jockey wheel as necessary.
Plus a visual check that the suspension is sitting at the correct height, and no sign of anything being insecure; like Mike I rather prefer this to actually releasing nuts and re-torqueing them up again. This includes checking the body to chassis fastenings. Also deal with any rust found on the chassis; wire brush and paint if you have the painted chassis. The very late Safaris had galvanised chassis, so should have no problems in this respect.
Clean and lubricate the fold-away step if you have one.
External lights; I presume that your check includes actually removing the lenses, clean out any grot on the electrical components and perhaps apply a smear of Vaseline, replace any bulbs that are starting to look blackened (even if they are still working) - sorry, Mike, filaments(!), wash the lenses if the interiors have become caked with dirt, check the condition of the rubber seals under the lenses (if perished, one can improvise a replacement, or alternatively bed the lens down onto a mastic base).
Gas system; if (like me) you don't want to bother setting up a manometer test the visual check of pipes and joints can be enhanced with the use of soapy water (look for bubbles) to check for escaping gas. Worth checking also that all burners operate correctly, especially when all appliances are in use simultaneously; regulators can become gummed up, and jets can become blocked. Visual check also for obstruction of flues (fridge, water heater, space heater).
Problems with regulators can arise surprisingly rapidly if you have had the bad luck to have a batch of contaminated fuel; it happened to me a couple of years ago, and the regulator was so new (only about 2 years old) that at first I made the mistake of assuming that that was one part of the system that was above suspicion. As a result I had an entire summer holiday struggling with a water heater that kept going out, and an oven that took a couple of hours or more to cook a dinner which should have taken about 40 minutes.
Check also the battery connections (corrosion, fraying, etc. etc.) and check for corrosion around the main battery fuse.
Safety check on the complete 240V system, not merely checking that lights work; check that the trip switch works correctly, visual check that the earth bond/s are in good condition.
Check that the water pump is operating correctly and efficiently, with no obvious faults; external immersion types sometimes have problems with the electrical connection, onboard diaphragm types sometimes have problems in old age of air leaking in and thus reducing the suction.
Door hinges are sometimes very prone to corrode, and thus stiffen up. On my 1978 17-2 I rearranged the hinges to allow each half of the door to be lifted off, once opened, which made servicing the hinges quick and easy; if you can't separate the hinges it can be almost impossible to keep corrosion at bay. On another Safari I replaced the mild steel pins with stainless.
If pushed, or simply if more convenient, some of these checks can be made simply by just sufficiently acute observation while the caravan is in use; in many cases we are not expecting sudden catastrophic failure, so just be aware if something is working less than perfectly, and then rectify when convenient.
Dealer servicing schedules are drawn up on the basis that the owner will want everything working 100% when he gets the 'van back, and he may not have the knowledge or the prerception to notice if something is working less than perfectly, or the ability to deal with it if he does notice. If you are using the 'van regularly, a lot of the servicing can be devolved to continual awareness and acute observation, linked to ongoing maintenance, as you use it; this is a very well-established approach in yachting, where the demands on the vessel are much higher than those on a caravan, and where far more is safety-related.
Oliver