Post by Brian M on Jan 31, 2009 23:19:22 GMT
From: Seatonles1 (Original Message) Sent: 28/09/2005 18:39
Any quick solutions please I was out in my van at weekend and i could smell gas around the fridge area I hope to be out again next weekend is there any quick way of finding it or any particular place that might be the most obvious point for leaks
Thanks Les
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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:06
Sorry to bear bad news, but there was a letter in the Caravan Club Magazine some years ago about what had emerged as a gas safety problem with fridges, and which appears to apply to our models.
The gas feed pipe to the burner is steel, and is out of sight and out of mind - until the coating erodes and the steel rusts. Once it becomes porous you have a gas leak in close proximity to the burner.
This may or may not be the problem with your 'van, but it is clearly imperative that you don't use gas in any shape or form until the leak is identified and sorted. By all means look first at locations that are easier to check, but in the last resort the fridge may have to come out so that you can check that feed pipe.
When you have it out, even if that turns out not to be the problem, take the opportunity to clean and paint the pipe ...
Sorry,
Oliver
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From: Gareth851 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:14
Les,
Ref your gas leak, DONT take a chance, take the van to your local dealer who will sort and test the gas for you, it is worth paying their labour rate for the pressure/manometer check alone, believe me I know as I am a professional caravan mechanic and have seen first hand the results of home 'repairs' to gas leaks.
Sorry to sound harsh but the gas system really is best left to the experts.
Gareth (Pearman Briggs Ltd)
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From: Seatonles1 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:30
Thanks i will let you know how i get on Les
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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:44
Gareth,
In principle I totally agree with you, and I know at first hand that your firm can be trusted to get it right.
And I am reminded of, I think, King George V; when a titled and wealthy gentleman asked him how much it would cost to run a steam yacht like his, the king replied "You can't afford it." The enquirer bridled, and asked how he could possibly know that, without knowing his resources. The king answered: "If you need to ask the question, you can't afford it!"
It is possibly the case that if one needs to ask how to solve a gas problem, one probably doesn't have the skills to sort it out safely oneself.
Unfortunately I have had occasional experiences (but even occasional is far too many) of another very reputable dealership and Approved Workshop, with an excellent reputation, who - admittedly over a period of many years - have more than once returned a 'van after annual service with the hob burning badly, who have once returned a different 'van (my present one) after annual service with the gas water heater still malfunctioning, and who have just - in two successive years - returned my present 'van after annual service with an undiagnosed regulator problem.
The latter was even though at the time of this year's service I had specifically reported the fault and asked them to sort it out. In the event they tested the system using their own gas bottle and regulator, and having found no problem (surprise, surprise), they then passed it as OK. I then insisted that there had been a problem, and arising from further discussion I confirmed that I specifically required the automatic changeover system that was installed, so they then replaced the changeover head (which was not under suspicion), but not the regulator (which was under very heavy suspicion).
When I went to collect the 'van I found that there was a problem with the brakes, not the first time in their history of servicing my family's Safaris, so it had to be left for that to be rectified, and I actually picked it up the day before going on holiday, expecting everything to now be working correctly.
On arrival on site I found that I still had defective gas pressure; the oven was effectively unuseable for anything more strenuous than warming plates, and certainly wouldn't cook a dinner; the water heater struggled manfully, but tended to blow back, especially if any other gas appliance was in use at the time, or to blow out if there was any wind; and the hob burners worked just about adequately, but only if the water heater was not burning at the same time. The fridge was virtually useless on gas; it burned feebly, it would not keep food for any length of time and it would not make ice. Telephone discussion with the dealer's Workshop Manager then elicited his diagnosis that it was a regulator problem - exactly in line with my diagnosis when I had taken it in for service, and the very problem that they had been asked to sort out at outset!
It has now been sorted, but ...
Sadly, as an engineer but now in my sixties, for reasons of age and personal convenience I nowadays choose to normally contract out my servicing to professionals, but for the more tricky problems I have found too often than skilled DIY is sometimes more likely to solve the problem than professional ministrations.
I have the highest possible regard for Gareth's firm - who wouldn't? They were originally the retail arm of the manufacturers of our esteemed caravans. But I regret that I don't share his confidence in the industry at large. I wish I could ...
Oliver
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From: Gareth851 Sent: 28/09/2005 23:37
Oliver,<o:p></o:p>
With all due respect I fail to see what your experiences of certain dealers has to do with the gas leak in question. My recommendation to get it sorted by a professional is based on my own personal and professional experience of seeing the aftermath of home ‘repairs’, which thankfully only destroyed the caravan and not the lives of the occupants. I very seldom post to the group as most discussions I enjoy reading but do not wish to be involved in, however where this gas leak is concerned I can speak with some level of experience as I deal with LPG and its associated problems on a daily basis.<o:p></o:p>
Although I do not wish to defend the industry or ‘certain other dealers’ I do feel the need to reply to your concerns about using professionals;<o:p></o:p>
All caravan dealers (or at least those in the approved workshop scheme) should have CORGI and/or ACOPS registered LPG gas installers who (like myself) have been sent on very expensive training courses to gain knowledge and know how to rectify problems before they become too dangerous. The easiest (and industry wide) way to test for leakage is via a timed drop test with a Truma supplied pressure test gauge set to 150mb (5.3 times butane or 4 times propane working pressures), although many workshops still use a manometer aswell/instead. I would hazard a guess that most home repairers do not have this equipment or knowledge and a simple ‘sniff’ test is neither conclusive nor safe, especially as LPG is heavier than air and drops to the floor and spreads like water when released into the atmosphere, if it can be smelt at head level the floor level will almost certainly be saturated……... ignore at your peril.<o:p></o:p>
Finally Oliver your own gas problems may have been caused by a faulty batch of smelling agent added to LPG, which resulted in said agent emulsifying in regulators and appliances and causing performance problems and blockages.<o:p></o:p>
Regards,<o:p></o:p>
Gareth.
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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 29/09/2005 01:05
Sorry if I gave offence; we are in full agreement that gas work needs to be done properly, and your own competence in this area shines through everything that you have to say about how it should be done.
And of course, if one does not have the relevant gas fitting expertise, or sufficient general engineering and scientific expertise to be a satisfactory equivalent, I entirely agree that one should not meddle.
I only wish that all Approved Workshop repairers could be totally relied upon in this area; sadly, my experience is that they cannot always, although in fairness I have not had occasion to ask any of them to trace leaks.
And, yes, your diagnosis of my problems makes perfect sense and tallies with the eventual report from my repairer that my comparatively new regulator (total of under 6 months' use, spread over 3 seasons) was "all gunged up inside".
Regards,
Oliver
Any quick solutions please I was out in my van at weekend and i could smell gas around the fridge area I hope to be out again next weekend is there any quick way of finding it or any particular place that might be the most obvious point for leaks
Thanks Les
First Previous 2-7 of 7 Next Last Delete Replies
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 2 of 7 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:06
Sorry to bear bad news, but there was a letter in the Caravan Club Magazine some years ago about what had emerged as a gas safety problem with fridges, and which appears to apply to our models.
The gas feed pipe to the burner is steel, and is out of sight and out of mind - until the coating erodes and the steel rusts. Once it becomes porous you have a gas leak in close proximity to the burner.
This may or may not be the problem with your 'van, but it is clearly imperative that you don't use gas in any shape or form until the leak is identified and sorted. By all means look first at locations that are easier to check, but in the last resort the fridge may have to come out so that you can check that feed pipe.
When you have it out, even if that turns out not to be the problem, take the opportunity to clean and paint the pipe ...
Sorry,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 3 of 7 in Discussion
From: Gareth851 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:14
Les,
Ref your gas leak, DONT take a chance, take the van to your local dealer who will sort and test the gas for you, it is worth paying their labour rate for the pressure/manometer check alone, believe me I know as I am a professional caravan mechanic and have seen first hand the results of home 'repairs' to gas leaks.
Sorry to sound harsh but the gas system really is best left to the experts.
Gareth (Pearman Briggs Ltd)
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 4 of 7 in Discussion
From: Seatonles1 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:30
Thanks i will let you know how i get on Les
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 5 of 7 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 28/09/2005 19:44
Gareth,
In principle I totally agree with you, and I know at first hand that your firm can be trusted to get it right.
And I am reminded of, I think, King George V; when a titled and wealthy gentleman asked him how much it would cost to run a steam yacht like his, the king replied "You can't afford it." The enquirer bridled, and asked how he could possibly know that, without knowing his resources. The king answered: "If you need to ask the question, you can't afford it!"
It is possibly the case that if one needs to ask how to solve a gas problem, one probably doesn't have the skills to sort it out safely oneself.
Unfortunately I have had occasional experiences (but even occasional is far too many) of another very reputable dealership and Approved Workshop, with an excellent reputation, who - admittedly over a period of many years - have more than once returned a 'van after annual service with the hob burning badly, who have once returned a different 'van (my present one) after annual service with the gas water heater still malfunctioning, and who have just - in two successive years - returned my present 'van after annual service with an undiagnosed regulator problem.
The latter was even though at the time of this year's service I had specifically reported the fault and asked them to sort it out. In the event they tested the system using their own gas bottle and regulator, and having found no problem (surprise, surprise), they then passed it as OK. I then insisted that there had been a problem, and arising from further discussion I confirmed that I specifically required the automatic changeover system that was installed, so they then replaced the changeover head (which was not under suspicion), but not the regulator (which was under very heavy suspicion).
When I went to collect the 'van I found that there was a problem with the brakes, not the first time in their history of servicing my family's Safaris, so it had to be left for that to be rectified, and I actually picked it up the day before going on holiday, expecting everything to now be working correctly.
On arrival on site I found that I still had defective gas pressure; the oven was effectively unuseable for anything more strenuous than warming plates, and certainly wouldn't cook a dinner; the water heater struggled manfully, but tended to blow back, especially if any other gas appliance was in use at the time, or to blow out if there was any wind; and the hob burners worked just about adequately, but only if the water heater was not burning at the same time. The fridge was virtually useless on gas; it burned feebly, it would not keep food for any length of time and it would not make ice. Telephone discussion with the dealer's Workshop Manager then elicited his diagnosis that it was a regulator problem - exactly in line with my diagnosis when I had taken it in for service, and the very problem that they had been asked to sort out at outset!
It has now been sorted, but ...
Sadly, as an engineer but now in my sixties, for reasons of age and personal convenience I nowadays choose to normally contract out my servicing to professionals, but for the more tricky problems I have found too often than skilled DIY is sometimes more likely to solve the problem than professional ministrations.
I have the highest possible regard for Gareth's firm - who wouldn't? They were originally the retail arm of the manufacturers of our esteemed caravans. But I regret that I don't share his confidence in the industry at large. I wish I could ...
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 6 of 7 in Discussion
From: Gareth851 Sent: 28/09/2005 23:37
Oliver,<o:p></o:p>
With all due respect I fail to see what your experiences of certain dealers has to do with the gas leak in question. My recommendation to get it sorted by a professional is based on my own personal and professional experience of seeing the aftermath of home ‘repairs’, which thankfully only destroyed the caravan and not the lives of the occupants. I very seldom post to the group as most discussions I enjoy reading but do not wish to be involved in, however where this gas leak is concerned I can speak with some level of experience as I deal with LPG and its associated problems on a daily basis.<o:p></o:p>
Although I do not wish to defend the industry or ‘certain other dealers’ I do feel the need to reply to your concerns about using professionals;<o:p></o:p>
All caravan dealers (or at least those in the approved workshop scheme) should have CORGI and/or ACOPS registered LPG gas installers who (like myself) have been sent on very expensive training courses to gain knowledge and know how to rectify problems before they become too dangerous. The easiest (and industry wide) way to test for leakage is via a timed drop test with a Truma supplied pressure test gauge set to 150mb (5.3 times butane or 4 times propane working pressures), although many workshops still use a manometer aswell/instead. I would hazard a guess that most home repairers do not have this equipment or knowledge and a simple ‘sniff’ test is neither conclusive nor safe, especially as LPG is heavier than air and drops to the floor and spreads like water when released into the atmosphere, if it can be smelt at head level the floor level will almost certainly be saturated……... ignore at your peril.<o:p></o:p>
Finally Oliver your own gas problems may have been caused by a faulty batch of smelling agent added to LPG, which resulted in said agent emulsifying in regulators and appliances and causing performance problems and blockages.<o:p></o:p>
Regards,<o:p></o:p>
Gareth.
Reply
Recommend Delete Message 7 of 7 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 29/09/2005 01:05
Sorry if I gave offence; we are in full agreement that gas work needs to be done properly, and your own competence in this area shines through everything that you have to say about how it should be done.
And of course, if one does not have the relevant gas fitting expertise, or sufficient general engineering and scientific expertise to be a satisfactory equivalent, I entirely agree that one should not meddle.
I only wish that all Approved Workshop repairers could be totally relied upon in this area; sadly, my experience is that they cannot always, although in fairness I have not had occasion to ask any of them to trace leaks.
And, yes, your diagnosis of my problems makes perfect sense and tallies with the eventual report from my repairer that my comparatively new regulator (total of under 6 months' use, spread over 3 seasons) was "all gunged up inside".
Regards,
Oliver