Safari Valuations

[Brian M]

From: jdd535 (Original Message) Sent: 12/07/2004 01:22
I have a 1979 Safari that i need to get valued, can some one please help?



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From: Brian Sent: 12/07/2004 07:52
First time anyone has asked for one.

Through one of my businesses I offer an inspection and valuation service for classic cars, that is accepted by insurers. I see no reason why a valuation on a caravan should be any different, as I have records of recent sales of Safari's.

You don't say why you need the valuation, (insurance, probate, other legal proceedings) so you might like to check with the intended recipient that I would be acceptable as a valuer. They might insist on a Caravan Dealers valuation (if you could find one with a knowledge of classic caravans.)

Where I visit the vehicle, for classic vehicles up to £3000 in value I charge £75.00 plus travelling at £0.75 per mile from Essex to cover costs and time.
A valuation based on your photographs costs £30.00, but is clearly qualified that I have not actually inspected the vehicle.

Hope this is of help to you. Send me a private email if you wish to take this offer any further.

Brian Miller
Motordata Classic Vehicles
and Founder of Classic Safari Caravan Enthusiasts.
[e-mail]

[Brian M]

From: OliverShaw1 (Original Message) Sent: 05/03/2005 00:20


I don’t want to get get publicly involved with the correspondence relating to Roxiflydog’s Safari XL44, other than to wholeheartedly applaud Brian’s response to VJR (which I have already done). However one detail in VJR’s response (relating to a non-classic Safari) prompts me to start a new string regarding the value that we put on our classic Safaris.


Most of us surely acquired our Safaris primarily in order to use them and enjoy them, and I suspect that for most of us the question of how much we might get back when the time comes to sell was hardly a consideration. Nonetheless, from time to time some members do sell, and it is in our own interest as owners to do what we can to ensure that when that time comes we do not sell ourselves short.


I am sure that in many cases, perhaps all, we do not stint in maintaining our caravans in the best condition we possibly can. Some of us have been fortunate enough to acquire ‘vans which were already in excellent condition, and in at least some cases we have very willingly paid an appropriate figure for that. Others have taken on restorations, sometimes major, and I am both impressed and humbled by some of the restoration photographs that I have seen - from more than one member - within this group; I have some idea how much work is entailed in making a really good job of such restorations, particularly if one has to work outdoors (so that removing exterior panels is not an option, and any work on the frame has to be done from the inside, which is the difficult way). Some others may have owned their ‘vans from new, or nearly new, and have looked after them and maintained them in peak condition for twenty or thirty years. In all these cases there is no need to sell ourselves short.


We all know that a traditional Safari in first class condition, with careful and judicious modernising of interior equipment (if necessary) to bring it up to contemporary specifications, is at least as comfortable and just as useable as any contemporary caravan of the same size. On top of that, it has a great deal more character and history than many contemporary offerings, and if it is in first class condition and is properly maintained it is built to last a great deal longer.


It is therefore quite inappropriate, in my book, to value such a Safari at only a few hundred, or even at a thousand or so. We all do both ourselves and other owners a great disservice if that is the asking price at which we advertise; we individually control the price at which we are prepared to open discussions about the sale of our own caravans, and if we as a group represent an increasing share of the market then we also have a significant overall influence on our sector of that market.

In other fields there is a considerable premium for rarity, and for a classic or historic vehicle in peak condition; that effect does not yet seem to have percolated through to classic Safaris, but it is high time it did, and we as a group are in a position to start the ball rolling in the right direction.


One could not, for example, imagine Carlight (who made vans of similar quality and who - at least until recently - also reconditioned and sold classic used vans of their own manufacture) selling at that sort of price. Why should we be prepared to do so?

If it were a buyer’s market there would not be much we could do individually, but we are perhaps too ready to behave as though it were a buyers market when in fact it may not be. After all, when we ourselves are in the market to buy - and particularly if looking for a particular model - if one is offered a suitable example one does not haggle about the price; if you don’t pay the asking price someone else may very well do so, and there is no knowing how long it will take to find another suitable example to buy; for certain models it could be many years. For example, in a timescale of the last 15 years I have only ever heard of about five 17/2s still in existence - and I currently own two of them! Other than the older of my two, which incidentally might still be available to a member as a restoration project (and therefore at only a minimal price), there is no knowing when another one will next come onto the market.


We should perhaps recognise that we as a group now represent an increasing proportion of the owners of these classic caravans; hopefully we are moving towards the point where we represent a very significant proportion of owners. As such, we ourselves have a part to play in controlling the market value of our investments, and there is no reason why we should be prepared to sell as though what we are offering is no more than any run-of-the-mill thirty-year-old caravan.


Of course, if condition is less than excellent the price will reflect this, but that is a different matter. Likewise it is entirely proper that a very different perspective applies to caravans sold as restoration projects; there it may well be that going to a good home, where it will be properly restored and then cherished, may be far more important that the price for which one sells - and in these cases it is by no means unknown for "free to a good home" to be the basis of the transaction. But for a good example, the price should reflect its innate quality.

As a sideline to this, valuing for insurance purposes can properly be on a slightly different basis. The insurable risk then is the cost of having to replace a total loss, and that can legitimately take account of the difficulty of finding a like-for-like replacement, and of the fact that if and when one comes onto the market one may well have accept whatever is offered - at whatever is the asking price - and then put right any defects. This can be a much larger cost than the figure for which one might expect to sell one’s own ‘van.


While most caravan policies are designed around modern caravans, and their market value, classic policies that are designed for our very different requirements do exist, even if one has to search them out. Drew (whom I myself use) offer one, and I would expect that the Historic and Classic Caravan Club could probably point owners in the right direction also. Certainly for my policy the insurers have been happy to set up an agreed value policy, based on the above considerations. This has led to an agreed estimate for the size of fund that I might realistically need were I at short notice to be faced with having to start looking for a like-for-like replacement, and recognises that if a like-for-like replacement proved unavailable I would have to settle for an alternative top-quality classic van in the same size bracket.


Come on, folks; when the time comes to sell, recognise that we have a share in controlling the market. Start with an asking price which reflects the intrinsic quality of your ‘vans, and don’t sell yourselves short!




Oliver




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From: Brian Sent: 06/03/2005 09:22
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From: Brian Sent: 06/03/2005 20:51
As always, Oliver raises, in some detail, a very interesting argument, and I am sure he won't mind me putting forward some other thoughts on the same subject.
My general comments only apply to Caravans made after 1960, “Historic Caravans” of other makes made before that date have in the last year or two begun to command better prices, reaching the £3-5000 range when fully restored.

I have been tracking the prices of Safaris for a couple of years, and as I have previously said in other messages, the asking price range is from "free" up to £1500. I also watch the starting and final prices on the 30 or so that have appeared on Ebay in that time and have seen them sell for £50 - £1220. (Although there has not been a 17/2 or 17/4 advertised and their rarity value may increase the price, but against this has to be considered the fact that a substantial tow car is necessary for any 17 ft caravan)

It has been shown many times that owners are setting unrealistically high prices for their Caravan, and not attracting any bids on Ebay or remaining in the classifieds for a long time.

I am involved in the classic car market and know how easy it is for owners to request totally unrealistically high prices on the basis that just because their car is old or rare, "that it must be valuable". This is not always the case, there has to be a real demand for the vehicle, and I think this is why quite good Safaris sell for relatively low prices. There are just not enough people out there who want a classic caravan, and those that do may not be aware of the quality of a Safari.

The comparison with Carlights is interesting. Carlights have always been recognised as the Rolls Royce of the Caravan market with their last models retailing for up to £25000, some £5000 more that the next most expensive caravans in the UK market, and as in normal the best will always command a premium from collectors. To continue the analogy Safaris would be the Mercedes or Jaguars of the caravan market and therefore will always trail behind Carlight prices.

As far as insurance is concerned, I found that most of the caravan insurers would not even quote for a caravan over 20 years old. The classic car insurers also did not want to know. I finally got mine insured through the Caravan Club for an agreed value of £600 for their minimum premium of £35.00 per annum, plus the £30 membership of the CC. I think just over a pound a week is a pretty good price.

My evidence shows that there is no bias in prices towards any particular model. Neither is the year of manufacture a factor, although very late 70’s and early 80’s have fetched higher prices. In general this is just because they are generally in better condition than Safaris that are 10 or 20 years older. I would suggest that the only price determinant is condition.

I am going to put my neck out and start a price guide for Safaris that can quite easily be summarised as:

£0 - £100– restoration projects, missing parts, or with damp problems

£100 - £250 - usable examples requiring a fair amount of attention to body and chassis, with a few dings and scrapes and minor damp problems.

£250 - £500 – usable caravans in solid condition, perhaps requiring some attention to electrics, interior décor or accessories.

£500-£1000 – in excellent condition, no body damage, complete with original fittings

£1000 - £1500 – late models in concours condition, up-dated with modern facilities, hot water, shower. etc.

I think my own 1978 14/2 was a bargain when, in 2003, I paid £325 for a fully equipped, damp free, good to excellent condition (except for the paint on the roof and a couple of minor dents) much cherished Safari.

I am not sure that I agree with Oliver that we can control the market price. If you want to sell your Safari, surely the price should be set at what the market is prepared to pay. We can do a bit through the group to increase awareness of what good Caravans they are. But I suggest that if the sellers amongst us, set high prices and then do not attract any buyers, this is a pointless exercise when the objective is to sell to the next caring enthusiastic owner.

Owners of historic houses, cars often say they are not the owners, but merely the custodians of their asset, maintaining it to pass on to subsequent generations.

As always I would welcome comments from other members.

Brian Miller


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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 06/03/2005 21:57


Interesting comments, from someone who is attuned to the market.

However ....

On the other side of the coin, I was very happy to pay the asking price of £3,500 for my 17/2 just under 3 years ago, on the basis that I had known and admired this particular van for many years, had seen only one other actually come onto the market since I bought my 1978 one in 1990, and I was aware that if I kept the 1978 van I needed to do three separate structural repairs to deal with rot.

I was prepared to pay for that work to be done professionally, since the job was rather larger than I now wish to tackle myself - especially with no undercover facilities - and I had been given a very tentative estimate of £3,000 plus. I felt that the van was worth this outlay, in terms of its intrinsic worth to me.

In those circumstances £3,500 for a near immaculate 1980 17/2 seemed an attractive option, and buying from the chairman of the Safari Caravan Club (of which I had been a member for many years) I was happy that he was asking what he felt to be a fair price and that he was not trying to "rook" me. He had paid a great deal more than that when he had bought it a few years previously from the original owner, also a Club member.

I also had in mind that if I were to buy a younger van that would give the same satisfaction and that would last as long as this one should, I would probably have to pay a lot more. You don't get much in the way of modern caravans for that sort of figure.

And my insurer has accepted an agreed value substantially higher than this figure, so if I ever suffer a total loss I should have sufficient funds either to have the 1978 van restored or to look for another good van to buy.



Oliver.


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From: AlecGatherer Sent: 07/03/2005 00:34
An interesting debate. My piggy bank has yielded £400 to be spent on a useable 12/2. I shall relate my success or otherwise.


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From: Brian Sent: 07/03/2005 07:16
Alec

Group member John Dumnore (JDD535) has a very nice 12/2 for sale. It was just on ebay starting at £250 but did not sell.
I don't know how much John wants for his Safari, but it is worth emailing him.
If you go to the two messages posted by JDD535 in November 2004, there are some photos and contact details.

Brian Miller


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From: Brian Sent: 07/03/2005 07:35
Oliver

From your previous emails I had guessed that your 17/2 was something special, and continuing my classic car analogy could be likened to a limited edition Jaguar Mk2, one with a racing or rallying history, or one previously owned by a celebrity that will always achieve a price around twice the normal market values.

When you are next using it, can we please have some close up photos of both exterior and interior, because all I have are the "location" shots you kindly sent me last year.

Perhaps other members would let us know what they paid for their Safari so my price records can be added to.

Brian Miller

[Brian M]

From: Brian (Original Message) Sent: 10/09/2006 16:05
Ebay does it again - the 13/4 that Jayne and Neil were interested in has been bid to £1550!

For details see cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=019&item=290025443550

There are three bidders over £1500.

I just hope it doesn't make too many members think about selling their Safaris!

Now we will wait to see if the sale is completed.

Brian



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From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 10/09/2006 16:47
Brian,

I believe £1400 of the finished auction price of £1550 was for the full set of SAFARI GLASSES it had in the cupboard!

I am 12/2 ing it to Norfolk mid next week and the week after then down to Cambridge for a night but there will be someone in at home should you post my glass.

Heard nothing from the SAFARI owner in Shetland yet.

Regards

Mike


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From: Les-Irl Sent: 20/09/2006 12:29
Hi Folks,
At least I have an 'Irish' since of humor and don't take any offence to your comments re the Safari glasses being worth more than the caravan!!
Yes, I'm the guy who gave that 'record' price for a safari, and yes without even seeing it!
I have been in contact with the owner by mail and phone and have no doubts that this caravan is as described and is a one owner in as new condition, anyhow its obvious there were a few others out there who thought it worth this price also.
It will be near the end of October when we get over to collect it and when we have a date decided I will post it here and see if anyone has suggestions of an overnight stop off location between Ipswich and Holyhead a mere 322 miles! Will keep you posted and join the club in the near future. By the way I have purchased this caravan to tow with our 1977 Mercedes 200 saloon which
I bought from it's original owner a few months ago with just 8,250 miles from new.
Regards, Les


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From: 2Diesels Sent: 20/09/2006 13:56
Hi Les it may have been a little pricey but if it's as good as it's meant to be then could you really get a better caravan for that money? I doubt it very much. I wish you many years of enjoyment out of it
Regards Colin


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From: AlecGatherer Sent: 20/09/2006 21:12
Too right, Colin. If Les-Irl gets half as much pleasure out of his Safari as I get out of my Cheltenham, it won't be long before he forgets all about what he paid for it. And if he was given a free one, then set about putting it into the condition of the one he now has, by the time the project was finished (if ever) he would be wishing he'd spent the £1500!


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From: towedhall Sent: 21/09/2006 21:06
If it makes you feel better we paid a little more than you for our Safari,Towed Hall, but what a small price for something so perfect!.We knew that we couldn't have produced the same quality on a wreck, without spending far more than the total cost of our purchase- which included a brand new awning btw. The previous owner had restored and subtly modernised to an incredibly high standard, and all in keeping with the van.
We sit smugly on sites amongst hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of outfits, knowing our caravan is the only one there going UP in value..
If we want others to value Safaris, it has to because exceptional examples reach exceptional prices- we can't have it both ways- and let's face it, what else of this quality could you buy for under £2000 ? Not a modern plastic box, for sure!

Steve, Caroline and Fleur


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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 21/09/2006 21:33
Hear, hear!

Something that I have been saying for a long time!






Oliver


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From: Les-Irl Sent: 22/09/2006 23:26
Hi Folks,
Thanks for all the encouragement and good wishes, I have a 1937 Eccles in the shed now for many years
restoration started but a long way to go so I know its going to cost me quite a bit of money by the time
its finished and worse still the kids will have grown up and never enjoyed a trip away in it.
So that's why I purchased a ready to go caravan which we can sleep in on the first night, already our 11
year old son is excited at the thought.
We have decided to collect it on the evening of October 27th and have already been offered a parking spot
to stay in it that night by the current owner.
If anyone out there has any suggestions of a place to stop on Saturday night 28th probably somewhere
in Wales getting close on Holyhead, let us know.
Thanks again,
Les

[Brian M]

From: gp140 (Original Message) Sent: 04/11/2006 15:13
Dear All,
How do you determine the value of a 1970's 17/4 Safari caravan for insurance purposes ?

I have had my caravan parked up at Derwent Reservoir Sailing Club since I bought it in July. On Sunday I was informed two caravans have been stolen in the last two weeks !!

Any help or advice would be very welcome,

Regards

Michael Brown GP 140



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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/11/2006 17:22
Michael,

A great deal depends on its condition, and on how you personally regard the caravan. There are two alternative routes.

The usual method is to insure for the "market value", which is what you might reasonably expect to get if you were to sell as an arm's length transaction on the open market. This will be buttons, a few hundred at most. A single accident repair might well cost more than the insurable value on this basis. The premium will be very little, because the insured risk is so small, but if you have any sort of a loss you will get very little back from the insurer and the 'van is likely to be a constructive write-off.

If you regard the caravan as having no great value, and would be content to replace if necessary with whatever caravan (of any make) of about the same size and age you are able to find, this may be the best route for you; it will certainly be the cheapest one.

The alternative is to go for a "classic caravan" policy. That is based on an agreed value, and you will have to make your case for that value to the insurer, but you might very reasonably base it on what you feel you would have to spend to acquire another of the same make and model and condition. If in the event of a total loss you would be looking specifically for a 17 ft Safari you might eventually have to pay a lot more for a replacement than you would get for selling your one on the open market, because not many come onto the market, and if you are urgently requiring one you are in a weak position to haggle over the price; you may have to be prepared to pay whatever the asking price happens to be.

So you can sensibly start with a figure at the top end of what reasonable asking prices might be, say £1500. On top of that you can properly include an allowance for the cost of searching (and of perhaps fruitless journeys to view ones that you decide are not up to scratch), and an allowance for the cost of putting right any defects if you have to accept one that is in need of work. Say a couple of thousand if you have to have minor damp problems professionally repaired; serious ones could cost a lot more than that, but that would be a reason for not accepting that particular 'van in the first place, but re-sealing might well cost £1,000 per corner if done by a large dealer.

In parallel with that, consider the cost of the other option. If you had a total loss and had to replace the caravan, what would you expect to have to pay if you went to your local large caravan dealer looking for a secondhand caravan that would give you comparable accommodation, and comfort, and of similar quality, and in sound structural condition. My guess is that you would of necessity then be looking at a much younger 'van, but if you feel that for a given sum available to spend at a dealer you could find something that would give you just as much overall satisfaction as the Safari that then tends to set an upper limit to your proposed agreed value.

Four years ago I insured my 1980 17/2 for £7,500, on the basis that I felt that would allow for all reasonable eventualities, even though that is vastly more than I paid or that I could ever expect to sell it for, and the insurers were happy to accept this for an agreed value. That is just as well, because in a moment's carelessness a year ago in a car park that turned out to be an Olympic grade obstacle course I slightly graunched one side against a knee-high stone wall, and there was no quibble whatsoever at replacing the panel and having a new wheel spat made to pattern.

Not many insurers will offer an agreed value "classic caravan" policy, but one that does is Drewe Insurance;
The Post House, 14 Load Street, Bewdley, Worcs., DY12 2AE, 01299-401663. They will, as routine, ask for a recent photograph if you want a classic policy. I have no vested interest in recommending them; I am merely a well satisfied customer who has been with them for perhaps twenty years.

The other bit of self-help that you can of course do is to invest in a decent wheelclamp and a decent hitchlock. The wheelclamp you should be able to buy off the shelf, but the dealer will probably have to order the hitchlock specially. Not all manufacturers offer models which will fit the B&B hitch, and certainly your dealer is unlikely to have that model in stock. One make which certainly used to offer a model to fit the B&B hitch is Bulldog, and when I bought mine there was at least one other make to choose from but the name of the other now escapes me.

Hope this helps.

Finally, off-topic and a little cheeky, but we may well have another shared interest: looking at your nickname and at the location of your caravan do I correctly put two and two together to deduce that you own a GP14 dinghy, and that it is a seriously early one (no. 140) - and checking the membership list in the 2006 Handbook for that sail number do I deduce that you are not a member of the Class Association? And if so, can I interest you in joining us?

Regards,





Oliver


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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/11/2006 17:32
Sorry, I have just realised that you said 1970's rather than 1970, and my suggestion of a base line for an agreed value policy was based on the false assumption that it was a 1970 model.

If ten years younger, the baseline would be higher. I paid £3,500 for a near-immaculate 1980 17-2 in 2002, which was the asking price, and knowing that it was probably unique and that it was what I was looking for I felt that I was in no position to haggle.

Between the two figures I suggest a sliding scale, according to the actual age of your one, but with a distinct jump in the scale at the point where double glazing came in (1976) and another one where the more streamlined front fairing and on-board battery came in (probably 1978, but just possibly '77).

Regards,




Oliver


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From: gp140 Sent: 08/11/2006 21:36


Hello Oliver,thank you for your comments on caravan insurance I am
going to contact Drewe Insurance
and discuss the matter with them.
You are correct about the GP14 boat I have three of them the
sail number of the youngest one is 2521
I spent the winter nights restoring it I have some photos of it I
will send them to you if want them
many thanks for the info
Michael Brown






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From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 09/11/2006 11:39
Michael,

Glad that my comments on insurance seem likely to be helpful to you.

Your three GP14s outdo my two; having had a new one built for me this year I am trying to justify keeping the old one as well, at least for the time being. One day that may however go, in order to make way for a restoration of a seriously early one.

Would be very interested to see your photos, but suggest that you send them to me off-list; [e-mail].

That is not the email address in my profile for this ID; it is the one for ClassicSafariman, but if I try to update the one for this ID the system then seems to get confused. And I have stopped using [e-mail] and no longer download anything sent there because it has to be routed through my BTInternet server and I found that every single email was then downloaded twice, which was a nuisance.

Regards,



Oliver


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From: Brian Sent: 30/11/2006 10:24
Returning to the original subject of insurance. When I got my Safari I first tried the classic car insurance companies and found none of them would cover a caravan, and the caravan insurers would not offer a quote for a caravan over 20 years old.

The only insurer who would quote was the Caravan Club.

Their minimum quote is £35.00 that covers a market value of up to £600 plus contents of £300. I have used my 20% no claims bonus to increase the value to £1000 and contents to £500. I have agreed that in the event of damage costing more than £1000, I will receive a sum up to that amount, that enables me to buy a similar Safari in similar condition, and be able to buy the salvage, for a nominal sum.

In addition to the premium I have to pay the membership of the Caravan Club.

If you require any confirmation of the value of your, I have kept a record of every Safari sale in the last 3 years and so could provide evidence if required.

Brian




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From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 30/11/2006 10:43
Brian,

So not only have you got good insurance from the caravan club but you are a member so think of all those sweet smelling, power shower and central heated toilet blocks you can use on the sites!

How`s my large SAFARI glass coming on? I went in each day for the postman in anticipation!

Mike