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Post by Brian M on Jan 29, 2009 15:00:14 GMT
From: nimueandme (Original Message) Sent: 03/06/2004 00:16 hi, just wondered what everyone pulls their safari's with? we are using a 2lt deisel primera, not a very new one I might say, it is a K reg. Is this realy big enough?/ I am only wondering as I am becoming a bit paraniod with all the problems we have been having with brakes and the fact that safari's are a wee bit heavy. regards Gloria (nimueandme)
From: jaa Sent: 03/06/2004 07:16 hi , i pull my 78 14/2 with a 91 discovery V8i as you can imagine i don't have any problems and i don't even use a stabiliser , i find it tows better than the lightweight 12 ft swift i had before . If you stick to the 85% rule you shouldn't have any problems but as you say safaris are heavy , mine has a MLW of 1100 kg which i probably get quite close to , you need to check what the kerb weight of your primera is and calculate if 85% of the kerb weight is less than the weight of your safari , you don't say if your car is a turbo or not , if it's not it may not be quite powerful enough for towing a heavy caravan especially on hills , I hope this helps . john
From: BrightHawaiianSunrise Sent: 03/06/2004 08:30 I pull mine ( 12/2 ) with a classic Safari Series 2a 1971 short wheel base land rover, a gentle sedate tow !! Martin
From: Brian Sent: 03/06/2004 08:55 Gloria I pull my 14-2 with a 1970 Volvo Amazon that has a few engine tweaks and probably produces 110bhp, I can cruise at 50-55mph up hill and down on Motorways. The outfit seems very stable and the only time I have ever had a bit of a snake was when I was trying for a max speed (not in the UK of course ahem! ahem!) when I got up to just over 70. From the Safari handbook the weights are given as: 12-2 unladen weight 770kg max laden weight 948kg 14-2 unladen weight 820kg max laden weight 1009kg The Caravan Club recommends that the weight of your caravan should not be more than 85% of the cars weight. This means that the weight of your car should be over 1115kg for a 12-2 and over 1187kg for a 14-2. My Volvo is a heavy old beast and weighs 1252kg so I am well under the 85% rule. There is also the issue of the nose weight that the caravan puts on the back of the car. I have an old nose weight guage and can check mine accurately. My Volvo has lowered suspension and if the nose weight is too much I have a grounding problem with my exhaust system on ramps etc. I find that if I leave my battery in the front locker, my nose weight is over 80kg coming down by 6-7kg with it removed. You can check your nose weight using a broom handle in the hitch and a pair of bathroom scales. It may be that your car's rear suspension is a bit soft and that you are putting too much weight on it. Sometimes your car handbook will advise on the max nose weight. Does the back of your car look a bit low with the Safari attached? Hope some of this rambling might help you. Brian Miller
From: Pistonbroke_694 Sent: 03/06/2004 15:48 ...........and I tow my 12.2 with either an E30 BMW 325 (no problems at all) or a 1980 Talbot, er Sunbeam Lotus that is, with no problems either although the 85% factor is a bit borderline with this one. Both cars have uprated and lowered suspensions with Bilstein or KYB load sensing gas adjustable dampers (which are brilliant for towing). The Sunbeam has a low 4.44:1 CW & P ratio and LSD, and 300lb rear springs, and with this one I do pay a bit more attention with nose weights.
From: Scaniadriver72 Sent: 03/06/2004 21:03 HI Gloria I do not think you would question the car-caravan match if it had not been for the brakes sticking on and making the car struggle.Believe you me as professional truck driver I have seen a lot of badly matched outfits. I once saw a 3 wheeler towing a trailer tent ( No it was not Del Boy),and a ford orion1.4 towing a 18ft Bessacar.These were accidents waiting to happen.I am sure even if your primera does not have a turbo it will still pull ok,just take a litte more time on the hills.The primera I am sure must out weigh the Safari alright.Hope Dennis gets to the bottom of your brake prob
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Post by Brian M on Feb 1, 2009 11:17:39 GMT
From: fiona_dyes (Original Message) Sent: 26/06/2007 14:28 We are starting to look for a new car and would like suggestions and advice on what would make a suitable tow car for the 1968 13/4 safari. As we plan to use the caravan more, we don't really fancy using the Super Snipe regually, especially as Mike's in the processes of rebuilding the engine on it. Many thanks. xx
Recommend Message 2 of 13 in Discussion From: 123gt4 Sent: 26/06/2007 15:55 Hi Fiona, I have 68 Volvo 144S which would be good to tow with, it has 4 wheel duel line disc brakes and a 2 litre twin carb engine. last on the road in 2000, was very well looked ater, coated in oil, superb underside immac interior, needs 2 wings which I`ve got and an exhaust. I now have a 123gt and classic pv so want to rehome .Interesred? From: fiona_dyes
We are starting to look for a new car and would like suggestions and advice on what would make a suitable tow car for the 1968 13/4 safari. As we plan to use the caravan more, we don't really fancy using the Super Snipe regually, especially as Mike's in the processes of rebuilding the engine on it. Many thanks. xx
From: fiona_dyes Sent: 27/06/2007 00:34 Thanks, but we don't want another project as we've got 3 of those already and one includes the Super Snipe. The trouble is hubby had an accident on his way from work and wrote of the daily you see.
From: ElfynHughes Sent: 29/06/2007 09:08 I know I am prejudiced, but have a look at a Rover P6 - you can pick one at a reasonable price. The 3500 was voted Tow Car of the Year in 1978. If you don't want the expense of running a V8, the 2200TC would easily tow your van - and it would look superb!
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 29/06/2007 09:43 Rover P6s are lovely cars to drive, although in my opinion the best of the P4s from a generation earlier knocks them into a cocked hat - the ultimate in what has been variously described as the grand touring armchair or the gentlemen's mobile club!
The best of all the P4s is probably the Rover 100, and the second best the 110. (Have never owned a 110 myself, but my brother has owned both and insists that the gearing of the 110 is less suited to towing than is the 100.)
If you go for a P6, be more than usually careful in checking for rust. They had an unenviable reputation for it when there were a lot of them around, admittedly mainly in the bolt-on exterior panels rather than the main core of the body, but that is not a lot of help these days when replacement panels are probably difficult to source.
Not for nothing was the 200 / 2200 categorised in a spoof pseudo-German glossary of Rover terms, published in the seventies in Freewheel, the magazine of the Rover Sports Register, as "die Rustenwagen", and the V8 as ""die Rustenwagenmitdieveeatenjin"!!
One other problem area; the V8 was basically an over-engined 2000, and not everything was fully uprated to cope with the bigger engine. In particular, the V8 automatic used a Borg Warner gearbox that was only just up to handling the torque that the engine produced, which was massive for those days. Once it became well worn the changes could then be somewhat lumpy, and the shock from a lumpy change would then be transferred right through the transmission system - and unfortunately the half shafts weren't up to the abuse!
As you may gather, I ran a Rover 100 for several years in the seventies, and then made the serious mistake of upgrading to a V8 automatic. It was the youngest and most prestigious and most expensive car I had ever bought at that time, but after only four years it went for scrap - and it took me some time to recover financially from the loss. In those four years I averaged more one major breakdown per year (at least two of them broken half shafts), and at least one major rust repair per year.
The end came when the automatic gearbox finally packed up, and when I also needed yet another major rust repair doing, plus work on the brakes. The repair estimate for that little lot was a lot more than the car would have been worth even after repairs and in top condition, so scrapping it was the only realistic option.
A year later I was lucky enough to be able to buy back my old Rover 100, which I then ran for a further 3 years before passing it on within the family.
And since Rover were no longer building quality cars (although I think it is fair to say that a decade or so later they did return to doing so) I switched my allegiance to Volvo for about the next twenty years.
Oliver From: fiona_dyes Sent: 23/07/2007 18:38 Tow car problem solved hopefully, as hubby bought a barge. Sorry 1988 Volvo 240. Huge thanks for all your suggestions guys. xx From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 23/07/2007 19:54 And a very nice car, too, apart from being perhaps a little thirsty.
Not at all a barge (unless perhaps a luxury one). Comfortable, reliable, fast, and no mean towcar.
Plus a touch of luxury, and certainly of distinction and elegance in the styling; not like so many younger cars which are straight out of the blob school of design.
I was delighted with our successive Volvo 240s, and in particular with my long-term 1985 one (owned from 1990 until c.2004) and father's 1981 one (owned from 1984 until written off in a rear end shunt in 2001). It was only in the aftermath of the latter incident, when Madam's insurers provided us with a with a Discovery for the duration of our caravan tour of the Highlands, that the Volvo fell out of favour, and from then on it was just a matter of how soon could I afford to change!
Oliver
From: fiona_dyes Sent: 23/07/2007 20:00 We get around 19MPG with the Humber without the caravan and as we've not been very far in it with the caravan, I don't know what it's like towing, so anything must be better than that.
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 23/07/2007 23:51 Much will depend on terrain, type of journey, and style of driving.
My best ever, solo, in the 1981 Volvo 240 (2.1 litre) was 27 mpg on a long run (Liverpool to Aberlemno, between Forfar and Aberdeen), cruising at (or perhaps, back in those days, slightly above!!) the legal speed limits.
Typically, solo, in the 1985 Volvo (2.3 litre), cruising at the legal speed limits but in fact a mixture of local and longer runs, was around 23 mpg overall. At the time I was living in a rural area, and routinely driving distances in the 2 to 50 mile range (each way) per journey, with periodic longer journeys, a mixture of city and country lanes and motorway, and everything in between, as more or less my daily mix.
Towing, with up to 1500 kg of Safari 17/2 on the back, and aiming to cruise at 50 mph on dual carriageways and motorways, towing all over the UK, I used to reckon around 17 mpg. Parents, in their 1981 240, towing their smaller and significantly lighter 14-2, used to reckon on around 18 mpg towing.
Hope this helps.
Oliver
From: fiona_dyes Sent: 24/07/2007 15:18 Mike thought he got around the low to mids 30s when he went to Leicester (from Ipswich) last week. Our van is a 13/4 so low 20's, based on what you said would be pretty good.
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 25/07/2007 12:25 I tow with a 1999 Volvo V70 2.4 petrol and have found no difference in fuel consumption with either my 13/4 or the lighter 12/2 on the tow hitch. I can average 24 MPG and the Volvo fuel trip is noted for its accuracy. In June I towed the 12/2 to Berwick upon Tweed from Chester on a wet, cold and windy day and was down to 21 MPG, mind you I had Two Diesels spare windows on board and this gives me a chance to thank Colin for not turning up or answering my emails. Thanks to his lack of courtesy I was stuck with them for two weeks. On my return journey I was back upto 24.5 MPG on a fine sunny day, so wind and temperature do play an important role. Any one interested in double glazed windows out there? Mike From: Safariconvert Sent: 25/07/2007 15:48 Go for a BMW diesel!. My 1995 525TDS with over 200,000 miles on clock still does 40mpg overall for normal driving and 30+ mpg when towing. It's a lot nicer than a Volvo too expecially in power and handling! Cliff
From: AlecGatherer Sent: 01/08/2007 20:45 Definitely a Riley RM 2½. Best tow car ever. Only 2 mpg difference towing or solo. Maybe a black 1951 needing a paint job.
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Post by Brian M on Feb 1, 2009 12:23:12 GMT
From: Denzel10009 (Original Message) Sent: 22/11/2007 23:45 Hi my fellow Safari-ists, I have a 1979 12/2 unladen weight 950kg I believe. Sometime in the spring I will want to go adventuring with it and want some opinions about towing. I have a Daihatsu Grand Move Automatic 1.6 petrol 90bhp 92 lbft torque. I did tow the van all the way from Gosport to Oswestry (shropshire) unladen with a Suzuki Jimny Automatic (1.3ltr petrol 79 bhp 77lbft torque). Several people have said to me that in 1979 when the van was released 100 bhp would have been about the limit! So my daihatsu should be ok. I would value any comments please. Many thanks and keep up the good work. Den.
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 23/11/2007 05:24 When my late parents bought a 12/2 new in 1974 we initially towed it with a Hillman Hunter automatic; 1750 cc if I remember correctly, but I suppose that 1600 is possible. I do know that we found it desperately slow going up hills, and that was only in Wales; I don't think they ever dared take the outfit up to the Highlands with that towcar. So they fairly quickly upgraded to a Chrysler 2-litre, again automatic.
Towing with the latter was a dream, and it memorably towed the Safari with the three of us aboard, plus two dogs, awning, and luggage for a month, all over the Highlands. This included the delightful but notorious Tomintoul road, with its hairpins on 1 in 5 gradients; although we took it with no trouble at all I gather that nowadays caravans are actively discouraged from using this route!
At that time I was running a Rover 100 - the real Rover 100, that is, i.e. the P4, with a 2.6 litre straight 6 engine, not the rebardged Mini - and towing the Safari with that was also a delight. With that car on one holiday I towed the caravan through the Lakes, then the Yorkshire Dales, and home over the Clitheroe Moors, without even being aware of the gradients on the latter part of the route; I therefore had a very rude awakening twenty years later when I towed the big Safari along the same route behind the Volvo and found that we were faced with gradients that were just about the limit for that outfit!
Your two towcars, both you recent one and your current one, are much more modern vehicles and they may well tow better than did the vehicles of over thirty years ago. You do know that you towed one substantial journey, presumably satisfactorily (since you don't say otherwise), with the Jimny, and the specification of your current car has higher torque and greater power output. But the route for that delivery trip is pretty flat terrain; just how it would cope with mountain terrain, or even high moorland, may be a very different matter.
Try it, with due caution in putting it to the steeper hills, and see how you get on. As well as routinely checking the kerbside weight it is worth checking the car manufacturer's recommended towing limit, since this should indicate the load with which it can restart on a 1 in 8 hill. You are probably within that limit, but remember that 1 in 8 is comparatively tame; although in flatter terrain you probably won't find many 1 in 8 hills, in mountainous areas you will undoubtedly find them a great deal steeper.
If you find that you can reliably cope with 1 in 6, my experience suggests that this opens up most of mainland UK to you, but in mountainous areas you still need to check routes with care to ensure that you have nothing steeper; there are a handful of steeper hills even on major roads, but they are fairly isolated and it is always possible to avoid them.
Try it out on progressively steeper hills, working your way up fairly gradually, until you have a reliable feel for what gradients you can safely tackle; accept that you have reached the safe limit when you feel that the car is still reliably able to pull up the hill but appears to be finding it quite hard work.
Do ensure that you fit an external transmission oil cooler; it is remarkable how much heat is generated in the transmission fluid when the torque converter starts working overtime on hills.
The traditional advice, which I suspect has been partially (but only partially superseded by modern multi-mode automatic systems) was that it is also worth changing down manually when towing up long hills. This is both because this reduces the load on the torque converter and because - at least with a "standard" automatic system - the auto gearbox can sense only those parameters that it is set up to sense, which may well be no more than engine and road speeds and throttle position. Specifically it doesn't know that it has more load to pull than usual because the car is towing - so it continues to change gear at points appropriate to the car when solo. But you do know that you are towing, so your assessment of when to change is likely to be better than that of the automatic system.
That argument may just possibly be eclipsed if you have a gearbox with a "sport" or "towing" or "high-torque" mode; if so try it out, but use your own judgement whether you are happy with its choices.
As a good guide, if you find that changing down makes the outfit accelerate (or allows you to ease the accelerator to maintain the same speed), and it if makes the engine sound less laboured. then you should indeed change down. Return to "Drive" once you are finally clear of the upward gradient.
Hope this helps,
Oliver From: Denzel10009 Sent: 23/11/2007 09:05 Thanks for that comprehensive answer Oliver, yes my trip from Gosport was successful (if slow on hills) and the vehicle did run hotter than usual on the hills but with no real problems. I shall experiment next year.
Denis Jevon
From: AlecGatherer Sent: 23/11/2007 11:18 When Oliver says that modern vehicles may well tow better than vehicles of 30 years ago, I agree with him but feel behoven to point out that in my experience vehicles of 50/60 years ago tow much better than modern vehicles. The Rovers, Rileys etc had so much more torque at lower revs because of the relatively long stroke engines. And I think that they had bigger horses in those days! Certainly the Riley tows better than anything more modern that I have tried. From: Denzel10009 Sent: 23/11/2007 13:16 Im sure you are right Alec and when my boat comes in I shall try to get a fitting classic car to go with my classic Safari.
Den.
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Post by 2diesels on Mar 17, 2009 19:58:10 GMT
Here's a selection of my tow cars 1969 BMC 900FG sadly now sold but this little workhorse was often to be seen throughout the North East with my 12/2 in tow, it was a very capable towing vehicle but it looked a bit odd though 1967 Rover 2000 not yet been used as a tow car but I have a bar to go on it as soon as there's enough steel in the boot floor to bolt it to I also have a 1997 Volvo 940 Turbo Estate & a 1990 Volvo 240 Saloon (cant get the photos to link) both of which are good tow-ers but the 240 struggles with the 17/2
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2009 21:56:07 GMT
The Rover 2000: "as soon as there's enough steel in the boot floor to bolt it to" - Yes, part of the traditional problem for those cars; "die Rustanwagen" !!
The Volvo 240: "struggles with the 17/2" - It will be about on the top limit of what the car will handle, both in terms of pulling power and control. But for a dozen years I successfully towed that very Safari all over the country with my Volvo 240 (1985 2.3 Automatic), including the Brecon Beacons, Snowdonia, and the Scottish Highlands, and occasionally also with Father's one (1981 2.1 Manual), and with the same car I towed the successor 17/2 to the West Country.
Except in very steady and favourable dual carriageway or motorway conditions I used to aim to tow at 50 rather than 60, and at that slightly lower speed there was no problem of control for an experienced driver - but all the time one was acutely aware that there was a seriously long and heavy caravan on the back.
Going up long gradients, even if not desperately steep, the big killer was the very marginal cooling on the automatic 240, and this despite a new radiator and the addition of a big Kenlowe fan and an external transmission oil cooler. Interestingly the manual one, despite a slightly smaller engine, was the better towcar on long hills, because it did not overheat; presumably the additional heat generated by the bigger engine plus that due to the automatic transmission just tipped a marginal situation over the edge.
For short hills, where overheating was no problem, it would romp up a 1 in 7, but although I several times put it at 1 in 6 gradients and it never refused them I always felt that it was giving me clear signals that that gradient was the limit. So I took good care to avoid anything steeper than 1 in 6.
Nonetheless with a modicum of care in route planning I found the Volvo an adequate towcar for the 17/2 - until eventually I had the use of a Discovery for a Scottish holiday, and that car was en eye-opener. Hills? What are hills? Oh, that is where we overtake all the slow stuff!!
Hence as soon as I came into my pension lump sum I switched from the trusty but elderly Volvo to a Discovery, and I have never looked back.
Oliver
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Post by 2diesels on Mar 19, 2009 10:11:27 GMT
You thought that was bad here wasn't the sills Inner sill, splash guard & doorsteps cut off revealing rotten base unit sides Nothing that can't be sorted though Base unit inner repair panel not the best fit but very good steel New inner sill perfect fit & thicker than original New D-post very good quality pressing
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Post by 2diesels on Mar 19, 2009 10:18:08 GMT
Oliver As far as the Volvos go the 240 is just a 2 litre auto & the 2 litres were never very lively even in the little 360 I know I've had 3 of them aswell. The 940 is a 2.3 turbo & it handled the 17/2 very well on the day I collected it from you the only trouble being it gave it something of a drink problem
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