Post by Brian M on Jan 29, 2009 10:26:38 GMT
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 17/05/2005 17:42
This message is in response to the technical part of request for info from new member jappy; original request in Dating Safaris; Purpose of This Board. I felt that the Technical & Restoration board was more appropriate for this part of the reply.
Delighted to have another 17/2 in the Group.
Yours was built in 1980 (the first two digits of the serial number give that information), and is the 12th one built that year - 10 later than my own 17/2 (Serial No. 80002).
If yours is restorable it is well worth making the effort to do it; Safaris were one of the candidates for the accolade "the Rolls Royce of caravans", and the 17/2 was the flagship of the range. Not many were built, and - until very recently - the few that were (and that survived the years) almost never came onto the market.
However ... .... as I said in a different message string a few days ago, you wait ten years for one, and then three come along all at once; just like buses, really.
One outline specification appears in the company’s sales brochure for 1980, and Brian has taken a copy of my one and will supply copies to group members on request.
I also have a lot of technical data, including the Owners’ Handbook and Owners’ Maintenance Handbook and photocopy of the B&B Chassis manual, all believed to be for mid to late seventies but almost all the information applies throughout this period, except as noted at point 8 below. These are all in my older 17/2 which is currently in storage; I will aim to retrieve these very shortly and can then email you scanned copies of whatever you want, but I am imminently about to start two months of very intensive A Level Examning, in excess of 1600 scripts, so if I overlook doing it do feel free to remind me.
Meanwhile, some time ago in answer to another member’s request for information I posted my own annual servicing checklist (which contains all relevant data), which I drew up some years ago - when I used to do my own servicing - and which is derived from the manufacturers’ instructions as amended by own experience of using and servicing these fine ‘vans some 20 years after they were manafactured. As you may imagine, little if anything had been deleted, but there were a number of additional procedures that I had found worth including. You can find that at General: awning and diy service advice sought, message 2 in that string and the attachment to Message 4 in the same string.
Wiring diagram is fairly standard and self-evident, provided you are aware of the following points:
Your ‘van is now 25 years old, and it is very likely that some extras will have been fitted, and it is at least possible that other wiring details may have been modified - especially the 12S circuit.
The original mains wiring was only for battery charging and running the fridge; if you have anything else at all fitted (and most Safaris of the time have been updated in this respect) it is a later addition, so it won’t be on the manufacturer’s wiring diagram.
The standard 12N circuit (for road lights) has not been amended since these ‘vans were built, so yours is likely to be as per normal. The Handbooks of The Caravan Club and The Camping & Caravanning Club both give the diagram for this, as does the packaging for most new 12N plugs and sockets.
The rear number plate light has twin bulbs, which are both wired as part of the offside side and tail lamp circuit. If your car has a bulb failure warning lamp, (as many Volvos have, or at least used to have), you may wish to consider rewiring the nearside bulb into the nearside circuit; you can then take the relevant feeds to the socket on the car from the output of the bulb failure unit rather than the input, which will mean that the unit continues to give warning if a bulb fails on the caravan, as well as if one fails on the car.
In the interest of road safety it is well worth fitting reversing lights. When you need to reverse, the driver behind needs all the warning you can give him, - and if you are ever caught out needing to reverse down an unfamiliar and unlit country lane at night following a navigational error (and, yes, it can happen; and when I found myself in that position it was a wet December night!) you yourself will need all the light to the rear you can generate in order to see where you are going.
Also in the interests of road safety you might like to consider installing an internal 12V socket, wired to the brake light circuit, near the rear window; I put mine at the end of the window ledge, behind the draining board. When actually towing you can then plug in a removable high level brake light, showing through the rear window, and you can remove it and stow it wherever convenient once you arrive on site.
The standard 12S circuit (for battery charging, fridge, option to run domestic electrics off the car battery, and reversing lights) has changed since your ‘van was built, and there are now three different versions of it (intended to accommodate all possible permutations of age of car and caravan either side of the transition year). You may therefore find that your ‘van has any one of these three variants. Again the major caravanning clubs give detailed information in their Handbooks, as does the packaging of at least some new 12S plugs and sockets.
My Owners' Handbooks predate the adoption of the 12S circuit, so will not show any of that circuit.
Hope this is helpful as a start; will aim to retrieve my manuals shortly, and meanwhile let us know if you require further information.
Enjoy your Safari; once you have sorted out the problems she should be a real gem, and will give you years of pleasure.
Good luck,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 22/05/2005 02:13
Oops; perhaps I am starting to suffer from the senility virus after all.
Having revisited my 1978 'van in its storage location, and having looked up the 1978 Owners' Manual, I now find that in there were a handful of small errors in my recollection of the original 1978 wiring; I had forgotten just how primitive (by modern standards) the original circuit was. Many of the Safaris that were still regularly used in the nineties had of course been updated, as I did to mine, and I had forgotten that in 1978 the 12S circuit had not yet come in and that the 12N circuit was the earlier incarnation - so there were no rear foglamps and the domestic circuits were fed via the 12N system.
If in 1978 you wanted either rear foglamps or reversing lamps you had to not only instal your own lamps, you also had to devise and instal an entirely separate circuit to drive them! I was aware that I had installed my own reversing lamps, but I had quite forgotten that I had also had to instal my own rear foglamps, and had forgotten that the 'van came with only the early 12N circuit and that I had put in the 12S circuit after I bought it.
Now that I realise that 1978 'vans did not have rear foglamps I should include these with the reversing lights and the high level brake light as something to seriously consider fitting in the interests of road safety.
I also see that according to the Handbook, the 1978 caravans were not wired for mains electricity. However my one certainly has a three-way fridge, which was already in place when I bought the 'van and which I have always assumed was original, plus an on-board mains battery charger, and (somewhat rudimentary) mains wiring.
I think - and hope - that that corrects all the errors and omissions, and that the rest of the original message can stand!
However it is also worth noting the several variants on the 12N and 12S circuits; there are two variations on the 12N circuit, and no less than 3 versions of the 12S circuit.
The original 12N circuit was apparently still in use in 1978, and pin 2 (blue) was used to supply the domestic circuits (interior lighting and water pump; probably also fridge, although the Handbook does not say so). Then, apparently during either 1978 or 1979 the version that we know today appeared; this made provision for rear foglamps, using pin 2 to do so, and thus it required an alternative circuit for the domestic services. In the absence of adjustments to the wiring the change presents an obvious compatability problem between pre-1978 'vans and later cars (domestic circuits cannot be run from the car, unless the car's rear foglamps are on), and between pre-1978 cars and later caravans (domestic services cannot be run from the car, and caravan rear foglamps permanently lit!)
This is where the 12S circuit came in, in the first of its 3 variants. It made provision for reversing lights, and it had pin 2 feeding battery charging (thus prolonged high current) via a split-charge relay or solid state device installed on the towcar, pin 4 was for domestic services (much lower currents), pin 6 was for the fridge, and pin 7 was spare. 20 years later, in 1999, the 12S circuit changed to improve the provision for the fridge, which now has its own dedicated earth at pin 7 (previously spare), and to change the arrangements for domestic services and battery charging. The latter two circuits now share pin 4, which is permanently live, and pin 2 (previously for battery charging) is now spare. There is now a voltage-discriminating circuit on board the caravan (rather than the towcar) which directs the power to charge the battery whenever the voltage across the circuit corresponds to the alternator actually producing a charging current; the alternator is normally regulated to charge at about 14.4 V, but I suspect (without checking) that the discriminator will switch somewhere well in the centre of the range between 12.0 V and 14.4 V.
Because when the revised version of the 12S was introduced the new rules had to make provision for the possibility of brand new caravans being towed by older cars, and vice versa, the new system was intended to be as compatible as possible, and all correctly wired towcars could tow all correctly wired caravans without any road light problems, but it was recognised that some combinations might need some rewiring of the domestic services. In particular, an older towcar towing a new caravan might not be able to cope with the high demand placed on pin 4 for battery charging, and this circuit might blow the fuse if the towcar circuit is not correctly uprated; in the worst cases, if the circuit on the towcar were not fused, it could even burn out the towcar circuit. Conversely an older caravan being towed by a newer towcar towing would not be able to recharge the battery from the car without rewiring this circuit, but the system would at least be safe.
Yet another (intermediate) standard for 12S also appears to exist, c. 1998, which is essentially the old standard but with a separate fridge return line taken to pin 7 (previously spare).
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: oakandsue Sent: 13/05/2007 19:40
hi oliver.just reading your tech info on 17/2 1980 safari.we have serial no 80003.bought it last sept in a bit of an unloved state with leaks damp and rot!we have nearly completed the internal restoration and decorating.thougth we had resealed all external leaks,but todays heavy rain has proved we have not!small leak above kitchen window.we justlove our acquisition!It wont be completely original but as near a d**n it!
Regards
Oak and Sue
Reply
Recommend Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 13/05/2007 22:16
Good luck with sorting out your remaining leaks; the 17-2s are most certainly lovely caravans, and it is well worth persevering. Enjoy.
Having said that, my own caravan has been taking very much a back seat to the two boats over the last couple of years, although since I have always maintained that I am a sailing man and a musician first and a caravanner very much second that is perhaps reasonable!
Nonetheless I intend to give it some use this summer, in conjunction with sailing, and if cash flow permits (and if I resist the temptation to spend the available cash on new sails for the new boat) I may yet get to offer to organise a rally of some sorts in the Scottish Borders this summer.
Certainly I shall need to decide fairly soon now whether I can make the commitment, and then see whether there are any takers.
Oliver
This message is in response to the technical part of request for info from new member jappy; original request in Dating Safaris; Purpose of This Board. I felt that the Technical & Restoration board was more appropriate for this part of the reply.
Delighted to have another 17/2 in the Group.
Yours was built in 1980 (the first two digits of the serial number give that information), and is the 12th one built that year - 10 later than my own 17/2 (Serial No. 80002).
If yours is restorable it is well worth making the effort to do it; Safaris were one of the candidates for the accolade "the Rolls Royce of caravans", and the 17/2 was the flagship of the range. Not many were built, and - until very recently - the few that were (and that survived the years) almost never came onto the market.
However ... .... as I said in a different message string a few days ago, you wait ten years for one, and then three come along all at once; just like buses, really.
One outline specification appears in the company’s sales brochure for 1980, and Brian has taken a copy of my one and will supply copies to group members on request.
I also have a lot of technical data, including the Owners’ Handbook and Owners’ Maintenance Handbook and photocopy of the B&B Chassis manual, all believed to be for mid to late seventies but almost all the information applies throughout this period, except as noted at point 8 below. These are all in my older 17/2 which is currently in storage; I will aim to retrieve these very shortly and can then email you scanned copies of whatever you want, but I am imminently about to start two months of very intensive A Level Examning, in excess of 1600 scripts, so if I overlook doing it do feel free to remind me.
Meanwhile, some time ago in answer to another member’s request for information I posted my own annual servicing checklist (which contains all relevant data), which I drew up some years ago - when I used to do my own servicing - and which is derived from the manufacturers’ instructions as amended by own experience of using and servicing these fine ‘vans some 20 years after they were manafactured. As you may imagine, little if anything had been deleted, but there were a number of additional procedures that I had found worth including. You can find that at General: awning and diy service advice sought, message 2 in that string and the attachment to Message 4 in the same string.
Wiring diagram is fairly standard and self-evident, provided you are aware of the following points:
Your ‘van is now 25 years old, and it is very likely that some extras will have been fitted, and it is at least possible that other wiring details may have been modified - especially the 12S circuit.
The original mains wiring was only for battery charging and running the fridge; if you have anything else at all fitted (and most Safaris of the time have been updated in this respect) it is a later addition, so it won’t be on the manufacturer’s wiring diagram.
The standard 12N circuit (for road lights) has not been amended since these ‘vans were built, so yours is likely to be as per normal. The Handbooks of The Caravan Club and The Camping & Caravanning Club both give the diagram for this, as does the packaging for most new 12N plugs and sockets.
The rear number plate light has twin bulbs, which are both wired as part of the offside side and tail lamp circuit. If your car has a bulb failure warning lamp, (as many Volvos have, or at least used to have), you may wish to consider rewiring the nearside bulb into the nearside circuit; you can then take the relevant feeds to the socket on the car from the output of the bulb failure unit rather than the input, which will mean that the unit continues to give warning if a bulb fails on the caravan, as well as if one fails on the car.
In the interest of road safety it is well worth fitting reversing lights. When you need to reverse, the driver behind needs all the warning you can give him, - and if you are ever caught out needing to reverse down an unfamiliar and unlit country lane at night following a navigational error (and, yes, it can happen; and when I found myself in that position it was a wet December night!) you yourself will need all the light to the rear you can generate in order to see where you are going.
Also in the interests of road safety you might like to consider installing an internal 12V socket, wired to the brake light circuit, near the rear window; I put mine at the end of the window ledge, behind the draining board. When actually towing you can then plug in a removable high level brake light, showing through the rear window, and you can remove it and stow it wherever convenient once you arrive on site.
The standard 12S circuit (for battery charging, fridge, option to run domestic electrics off the car battery, and reversing lights) has changed since your ‘van was built, and there are now three different versions of it (intended to accommodate all possible permutations of age of car and caravan either side of the transition year). You may therefore find that your ‘van has any one of these three variants. Again the major caravanning clubs give detailed information in their Handbooks, as does the packaging of at least some new 12S plugs and sockets.
My Owners' Handbooks predate the adoption of the 12S circuit, so will not show any of that circuit.
Hope this is helpful as a start; will aim to retrieve my manuals shortly, and meanwhile let us know if you require further information.
Enjoy your Safari; once you have sorted out the problems she should be a real gem, and will give you years of pleasure.
Good luck,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 5 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 22/05/2005 02:13
Oops; perhaps I am starting to suffer from the senility virus after all.
Having revisited my 1978 'van in its storage location, and having looked up the 1978 Owners' Manual, I now find that in there were a handful of small errors in my recollection of the original 1978 wiring; I had forgotten just how primitive (by modern standards) the original circuit was. Many of the Safaris that were still regularly used in the nineties had of course been updated, as I did to mine, and I had forgotten that in 1978 the 12S circuit had not yet come in and that the 12N circuit was the earlier incarnation - so there were no rear foglamps and the domestic circuits were fed via the 12N system.
If in 1978 you wanted either rear foglamps or reversing lamps you had to not only instal your own lamps, you also had to devise and instal an entirely separate circuit to drive them! I was aware that I had installed my own reversing lamps, but I had quite forgotten that I had also had to instal my own rear foglamps, and had forgotten that the 'van came with only the early 12N circuit and that I had put in the 12S circuit after I bought it.
Now that I realise that 1978 'vans did not have rear foglamps I should include these with the reversing lights and the high level brake light as something to seriously consider fitting in the interests of road safety.
I also see that according to the Handbook, the 1978 caravans were not wired for mains electricity. However my one certainly has a three-way fridge, which was already in place when I bought the 'van and which I have always assumed was original, plus an on-board mains battery charger, and (somewhat rudimentary) mains wiring.
I think - and hope - that that corrects all the errors and omissions, and that the rest of the original message can stand!
However it is also worth noting the several variants on the 12N and 12S circuits; there are two variations on the 12N circuit, and no less than 3 versions of the 12S circuit.
The original 12N circuit was apparently still in use in 1978, and pin 2 (blue) was used to supply the domestic circuits (interior lighting and water pump; probably also fridge, although the Handbook does not say so). Then, apparently during either 1978 or 1979 the version that we know today appeared; this made provision for rear foglamps, using pin 2 to do so, and thus it required an alternative circuit for the domestic services. In the absence of adjustments to the wiring the change presents an obvious compatability problem between pre-1978 'vans and later cars (domestic circuits cannot be run from the car, unless the car's rear foglamps are on), and between pre-1978 cars and later caravans (domestic services cannot be run from the car, and caravan rear foglamps permanently lit!)
This is where the 12S circuit came in, in the first of its 3 variants. It made provision for reversing lights, and it had pin 2 feeding battery charging (thus prolonged high current) via a split-charge relay or solid state device installed on the towcar, pin 4 was for domestic services (much lower currents), pin 6 was for the fridge, and pin 7 was spare. 20 years later, in 1999, the 12S circuit changed to improve the provision for the fridge, which now has its own dedicated earth at pin 7 (previously spare), and to change the arrangements for domestic services and battery charging. The latter two circuits now share pin 4, which is permanently live, and pin 2 (previously for battery charging) is now spare. There is now a voltage-discriminating circuit on board the caravan (rather than the towcar) which directs the power to charge the battery whenever the voltage across the circuit corresponds to the alternator actually producing a charging current; the alternator is normally regulated to charge at about 14.4 V, but I suspect (without checking) that the discriminator will switch somewhere well in the centre of the range between 12.0 V and 14.4 V.
Because when the revised version of the 12S was introduced the new rules had to make provision for the possibility of brand new caravans being towed by older cars, and vice versa, the new system was intended to be as compatible as possible, and all correctly wired towcars could tow all correctly wired caravans without any road light problems, but it was recognised that some combinations might need some rewiring of the domestic services. In particular, an older towcar towing a new caravan might not be able to cope with the high demand placed on pin 4 for battery charging, and this circuit might blow the fuse if the towcar circuit is not correctly uprated; in the worst cases, if the circuit on the towcar were not fused, it could even burn out the towcar circuit. Conversely an older caravan being towed by a newer towcar towing would not be able to recharge the battery from the car without rewiring this circuit, but the system would at least be safe.
Yet another (intermediate) standard for 12S also appears to exist, c. 1998, which is essentially the old standard but with a separate fridge return line taken to pin 7 (previously spare).
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: oakandsue Sent: 13/05/2007 19:40
hi oliver.just reading your tech info on 17/2 1980 safari.we have serial no 80003.bought it last sept in a bit of an unloved state with leaks damp and rot!we have nearly completed the internal restoration and decorating.thougth we had resealed all external leaks,but todays heavy rain has proved we have not!small leak above kitchen window.we justlove our acquisition!It wont be completely original but as near a d**n it!
Regards
Oak and Sue
Reply
Recommend Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 13/05/2007 22:16
Good luck with sorting out your remaining leaks; the 17-2s are most certainly lovely caravans, and it is well worth persevering. Enjoy.
Having said that, my own caravan has been taking very much a back seat to the two boats over the last couple of years, although since I have always maintained that I am a sailing man and a musician first and a caravanner very much second that is perhaps reasonable!
Nonetheless I intend to give it some use this summer, in conjunction with sailing, and if cash flow permits (and if I resist the temptation to spend the available cash on new sails for the new boat) I may yet get to offer to organise a rally of some sorts in the Scottish Borders this summer.
Certainly I shall need to decide fairly soon now whether I can make the commitment, and then see whether there are any takers.
Oliver