Post by Brian M on Oct 28, 2008 12:27:59 GMT
From: Brian (Original Message) Sent: 18/03/2006 06:44
<o:p></o:p>
Going through my Yellow Pages I found a Caravan Repairer about two miles from home. I visited them today and met a really helpful couple running the business from home, with a caravan workshop in the back garden and a series of 4 or 6 workshops and sheds. There were several modern caravans having various jobs carried out, from a quick glance to a high professional standard.
I explained my project to replace the front upper corners of my Safari and they gave me some excellent advice. They first asked me to assure them that I realised it was a totally non-cost-effective thing to do! I told them that I did, and that I wanted to do it myself as far as possible and keep the material costs down as well.
They were very complimentary about the construction of coachbuilt Safaris and pointed out that there was no way a modern could be rebuilt in the same way.
The rot on mine is only visible on the vertical wood corner bits on either side of the front window, and the outer ends of the top cross member. As far as I can see the cross member under the window looks ok. I want to replace the small strip of flat ally above the window, the two vertical bits at the side and the double curvature bodywork between the window and the silver ally lower panel, as mine has a dent and some unsightly runs where someone has tried to glue the grab handles.
Their advice regarding the sequence is as follows:
First remove the front locker, grab handles, front lights. Carefully remove the visor over the front window, the sealing joints, the awning drip rails, all of which cannot be replaced so need to be retained for future use.
Remove the outer panels, and the front window, at which point I can order the wood planed to size, allowing enough length to cut out all suspect wood. They suggest a good hardwood from a timber yard, as modern caravan timbers are a much lighter weight and will not last as long. Remake the wooden frame, using both a quality glue and brass or stainless steel screws.
Now comes the good bit. The usual cost of the white faced aluminium is £100 per square metre. When they are repairing the roof of a modern they have to start with a greatly oversize bit of ally and end up with offcuts that would more than cover the areas I want to replace. They can cut these to approx size for my requirements, and would “roll” the double curvature panel all for about £50.00.
I would then have to refix the panels, trim the window aperture, refit the window, reseal and fix the joints and the awning rail with stainless screws. They recommend using IDL Sealant as it remains flexible and the joints can be removed every 5 years for resealing. Sicoflex goes hard and would make the removal of the joint cappings almost impossible. As a further bonus IDL is only £1.99 a tube against £6-9 for Sicoflex. They also told me to buy fresh tubes as they have a relatively short shelf life and those I bought a year or so ago will have deteriorated for external sealing. Old tubes could still be used for gluing the outer panels to the wood work.
He showed me his stock of pre-patterned internal wallboard off cuts - probably over 60 different patterns and would let me have bits of whichever was nearest to the Safari pattern.
All I then have to do is to refix the handles and lights. JOB DONE! HA HA!!!
Anybody want to comment on anything?
Brian Miller
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 18/03/2006 09:21
Just to pick up your reference to using a quality glue.
It needs to be amply strong enough, and a gap-filling ability may well be an advantage, and although one intends to ensure that water is kept firmly out of the structure it can't do any harm at all to use a waterproof glue. Overall I would therefore choose a good quality marine glue for this purpose.
For several decades I used Cascamite on boats, and then in more recent years I have used waterproof PVA glues, with no problems. However I chose them primarily for convenience, and have always felt that they are not really designed as marine glues and that I was really asking them to perform to a more demanding specification than they were designed for, so I made absolutely certain that the paint or varnish film was adequate to keep the glue dry at all times. And for the last twenty years I have been aware of the development of marine epoxy glues (WEST System, and SP250, readily available from yacht chandlers).
I have very recently done some repairs to the boat using SP250, and this stuff really is amazing. WEST System is very similar, and I am sure that there is nothing to choose between them in terms of performance. It is a two-pot glue (mix the resin and hardener immediately before using it), and various types of filler material are also available to mix in with it for different purposes.
Used with no filler materials, the mix is the colour of a light varnish and about the consistency of a thick varnish; ideal for laminating and for gluing accurately mating faces of timber. With the appropriate filler mixed in with it (they offer a range of them) it can be used for gap-filling, still with immense ashesive strength, or for fillet joints (which to a traditional woodworker is quite phenomenal, asking the impossible and finding against all expectations that it actually works; like a fillet weld, just place one piece of timber edge-on against the other piece and then run a bead of the glue along the join!), or for smoothly fairing in a depression in a surface. It is so good that in certain circumstances it is now recognised good practice in boat building to just the two pieces of timber into reasonable proximity, not bothering to cut a proper joint, and then rely on this glue (in its gap-filling mode) to make the joint.
I am delighted with the way it has performed in the jobs that I have used it for, several of which will make good use of its strength and gap-filling properties, but I also inadvertently put it to an unusual test which demonstrated just how strong a glue it is, and in the process wrote off one of my G-cramps.
Fitting a new rubbing strake to the boat, with a finely tapered end, just as I finished tightening the very last screw near the end of the taper it split the grain. Sod's Law. There was still some surplus width to the wood, since I was gluing up before planing down to the final profile, so I slacked off the relevant screw, ran some glue into the crack, put a G-cramp across the cracked timber to pull the crack together, and then retightened the screw. Because of the angles, the clamp had to be fitted with its screw downwards.
Next day I found that a very little of the glue had run out of the crack, onto the pad of the clamp, and then down the thread. That prevented me from removing the clamp in the intended way, and I eventually had to break it off the boat by brute force, and I doubt whether I will ever manage to get the screw of the clamp to turn again. Having then planed the timber down to the intended profile and now varnished it, the repair itself is completely invisible apart from the fact of the new wood being a very slightly different colour from the original that is adjacent to it.
It is an expensive glue, but that expense is a very modest par of the total cost of a project, and certainly it is one that I can now thoroughly recommend.
Oliver
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 18/03/2006 11:48
Having rebuilt boats, canoes, vintage areoplanes and of course vintage cars I have always found CASCMITE as cheap and easy to use and it sticks like the proverbial!
It is now marketed by HUMBROL as EXTRAMITE and a word of caution when mixing, it should go into a toffee colour, if it stays white and pasty looking its shelf life is up.
I am at present restoring a 1930 MG with an ash body and I am using EXTRAMITE and from past restorations using wooden bodied vintage cars on trials I have never had a joint fail. In fact to break a joint afterwards I have found it will be the wood that will fail and not the glue.
In my boating days I used AEROLITE 303, it was messy two part mix using an acid but it was good glue.
Thats me lot, back to me glueing and screwing!
Mike
From: Wanderer5 Sent: 21/03/2006 10:18
Hi, Very imformative imfo on restoration re: front end.Reading it ,it sounds kinda easy!!...but we all know better.Having restored a few cars in my time,I always think actually starting is the most difficult bit, as once this is done there is no going back. Are you going to document this restoratoin ie photos text as this would be a great help to those following your endevours me for one.Mine sounds quite similar...but I'm hoping to get another season in before I start. Maybe Iwill maybe not. As for cascamite, my experience with this glue is second to none. Anthony aka...
<o:p></o:p>
Going through my Yellow Pages I found a Caravan Repairer about two miles from home. I visited them today and met a really helpful couple running the business from home, with a caravan workshop in the back garden and a series of 4 or 6 workshops and sheds. There were several modern caravans having various jobs carried out, from a quick glance to a high professional standard.
I explained my project to replace the front upper corners of my Safari and they gave me some excellent advice. They first asked me to assure them that I realised it was a totally non-cost-effective thing to do! I told them that I did, and that I wanted to do it myself as far as possible and keep the material costs down as well.
They were very complimentary about the construction of coachbuilt Safaris and pointed out that there was no way a modern could be rebuilt in the same way.
The rot on mine is only visible on the vertical wood corner bits on either side of the front window, and the outer ends of the top cross member. As far as I can see the cross member under the window looks ok. I want to replace the small strip of flat ally above the window, the two vertical bits at the side and the double curvature bodywork between the window and the silver ally lower panel, as mine has a dent and some unsightly runs where someone has tried to glue the grab handles.
Their advice regarding the sequence is as follows:
First remove the front locker, grab handles, front lights. Carefully remove the visor over the front window, the sealing joints, the awning drip rails, all of which cannot be replaced so need to be retained for future use.
Remove the outer panels, and the front window, at which point I can order the wood planed to size, allowing enough length to cut out all suspect wood. They suggest a good hardwood from a timber yard, as modern caravan timbers are a much lighter weight and will not last as long. Remake the wooden frame, using both a quality glue and brass or stainless steel screws.
Now comes the good bit. The usual cost of the white faced aluminium is £100 per square metre. When they are repairing the roof of a modern they have to start with a greatly oversize bit of ally and end up with offcuts that would more than cover the areas I want to replace. They can cut these to approx size for my requirements, and would “roll” the double curvature panel all for about £50.00.
I would then have to refix the panels, trim the window aperture, refit the window, reseal and fix the joints and the awning rail with stainless screws. They recommend using IDL Sealant as it remains flexible and the joints can be removed every 5 years for resealing. Sicoflex goes hard and would make the removal of the joint cappings almost impossible. As a further bonus IDL is only £1.99 a tube against £6-9 for Sicoflex. They also told me to buy fresh tubes as they have a relatively short shelf life and those I bought a year or so ago will have deteriorated for external sealing. Old tubes could still be used for gluing the outer panels to the wood work.
He showed me his stock of pre-patterned internal wallboard off cuts - probably over 60 different patterns and would let me have bits of whichever was nearest to the Safari pattern.
All I then have to do is to refix the handles and lights. JOB DONE! HA HA!!!
Anybody want to comment on anything?
Brian Miller
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 18/03/2006 09:21
Just to pick up your reference to using a quality glue.
It needs to be amply strong enough, and a gap-filling ability may well be an advantage, and although one intends to ensure that water is kept firmly out of the structure it can't do any harm at all to use a waterproof glue. Overall I would therefore choose a good quality marine glue for this purpose.
For several decades I used Cascamite on boats, and then in more recent years I have used waterproof PVA glues, with no problems. However I chose them primarily for convenience, and have always felt that they are not really designed as marine glues and that I was really asking them to perform to a more demanding specification than they were designed for, so I made absolutely certain that the paint or varnish film was adequate to keep the glue dry at all times. And for the last twenty years I have been aware of the development of marine epoxy glues (WEST System, and SP250, readily available from yacht chandlers).
I have very recently done some repairs to the boat using SP250, and this stuff really is amazing. WEST System is very similar, and I am sure that there is nothing to choose between them in terms of performance. It is a two-pot glue (mix the resin and hardener immediately before using it), and various types of filler material are also available to mix in with it for different purposes.
Used with no filler materials, the mix is the colour of a light varnish and about the consistency of a thick varnish; ideal for laminating and for gluing accurately mating faces of timber. With the appropriate filler mixed in with it (they offer a range of them) it can be used for gap-filling, still with immense ashesive strength, or for fillet joints (which to a traditional woodworker is quite phenomenal, asking the impossible and finding against all expectations that it actually works; like a fillet weld, just place one piece of timber edge-on against the other piece and then run a bead of the glue along the join!), or for smoothly fairing in a depression in a surface. It is so good that in certain circumstances it is now recognised good practice in boat building to just the two pieces of timber into reasonable proximity, not bothering to cut a proper joint, and then rely on this glue (in its gap-filling mode) to make the joint.
I am delighted with the way it has performed in the jobs that I have used it for, several of which will make good use of its strength and gap-filling properties, but I also inadvertently put it to an unusual test which demonstrated just how strong a glue it is, and in the process wrote off one of my G-cramps.
Fitting a new rubbing strake to the boat, with a finely tapered end, just as I finished tightening the very last screw near the end of the taper it split the grain. Sod's Law. There was still some surplus width to the wood, since I was gluing up before planing down to the final profile, so I slacked off the relevant screw, ran some glue into the crack, put a G-cramp across the cracked timber to pull the crack together, and then retightened the screw. Because of the angles, the clamp had to be fitted with its screw downwards.
Next day I found that a very little of the glue had run out of the crack, onto the pad of the clamp, and then down the thread. That prevented me from removing the clamp in the intended way, and I eventually had to break it off the boat by brute force, and I doubt whether I will ever manage to get the screw of the clamp to turn again. Having then planed the timber down to the intended profile and now varnished it, the repair itself is completely invisible apart from the fact of the new wood being a very slightly different colour from the original that is adjacent to it.
It is an expensive glue, but that expense is a very modest par of the total cost of a project, and certainly it is one that I can now thoroughly recommend.
Oliver
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 18/03/2006 11:48
Having rebuilt boats, canoes, vintage areoplanes and of course vintage cars I have always found CASCMITE as cheap and easy to use and it sticks like the proverbial!
It is now marketed by HUMBROL as EXTRAMITE and a word of caution when mixing, it should go into a toffee colour, if it stays white and pasty looking its shelf life is up.
I am at present restoring a 1930 MG with an ash body and I am using EXTRAMITE and from past restorations using wooden bodied vintage cars on trials I have never had a joint fail. In fact to break a joint afterwards I have found it will be the wood that will fail and not the glue.
In my boating days I used AEROLITE 303, it was messy two part mix using an acid but it was good glue.
Thats me lot, back to me glueing and screwing!
Mike
From: Wanderer5 Sent: 21/03/2006 10:18
Hi, Very imformative imfo on restoration re: front end.Reading it ,it sounds kinda easy!!...but we all know better.Having restored a few cars in my time,I always think actually starting is the most difficult bit, as once this is done there is no going back. Are you going to document this restoratoin ie photos text as this would be a great help to those following your endevours me for one.Mine sounds quite similar...but I'm hoping to get another season in before I start. Maybe Iwill maybe not. As for cascamite, my experience with this glue is second to none. Anthony aka...