Post by Brian M on Feb 1, 2009 11:10:13 GMT
From: ElfynHughes (Original Message) Sent: 04/06/2007 14:18
I have had two outings in the last three weeks in the 12/2 I bought from Bear and Donna last year.The first one - and my first ever outing in a caravan of any kind - was to Dinas Dinlle, which is about twenty five miles from home (Anglesey) and an excellent site that I can thoroughly recommend, especially for kids, and they serve a mean Guinness in the bar. The second outing over the Bank Holiday weekend was a 650 mile round trip to Scotland. I stayed at Beecraigs Country park near Linlithgow and I would recommend this site too.
Apart from having to change a wheel (and buy a new tyre!) the whole adventure was trouble free, the van towing very well behind a Citroen Xantia with no swaying or snaking at motorway cruising speeds of 55 - 60.
I have a couple of questions the gurus may be able to help with: when I was having the tyre changed the fitter said the wheel was meant for a tubed tyre. Has anybody encountered a problem with using tubeless tyres on these rims?
My Electrolux 212 refrigerator works fine on gas but not on 12v and I suspect not on 240v, does anyone have any suggestions?
I am slightly better informed now having had a copies of various manuals from Cliff and Oliver!
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Recommend Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert Sent: 04/06/2007 14:56
Elfyn,
Glad your outings went well. I don't know about the tyre but I thought the rims were suitable for tubeless tyres - mine has them fitted. We had an outing to the hills above Sheffield whilst grandaughter sitting last week, but this was the first time we used ours without 240v available. Our 212 refrigerator works fine on 240v but wouldn't work on gas or 12v! You could check yours on 240v at home. Plug in the 240v cable that hopefully came with it into the caravan socket and, if not suppied with caravan, a 3 pin plug adapter into the mains. Most caravan spares shops have these. A good way of charging the battery and using a hoover in the caravan too. Glad the manual was useful, and Oliver's. It looks like we both may need a 212 refrigerator manual too.
Regards,
Cliff
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Recommend Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/06/2007 17:47
Refrigerator problems:
All three means of running the fridge are independent up to the point of generating heat input to set up the circulation of the coolant (by convection). So at the back of the fridge there are two separate electric heaters and a gas burner, each of which entirely separately heats the appropriate part of the system, and thus gets the working fluid moving.
If the fridge works correctly on any one of these, as in your case working correctly on gas, then you can be sure that the cooling cycle part of it is working, and the problem lies with the particular separate input system/s.
In my experience, the 240V system is by far the most reliable, so if your 240V system for the ‘van as a whole appears to be generally in good working order there is every likelihood that the fridge will operate on 240 V.
If by any chance it appears not to work, first check the obvious; fuse/s and/or circuit/breaker/s, and master switch/es. Be aware that it may or may not be still wired through the original caravan distribution unit; if the electrics have been upgraded to instal 13A sockets the fridge may now be running direct off the consumer unit. In either case it may well have its own fuse or circuit breaker, and/or possibly a master switch at the distribution unit, particularly if you happen to have a Morco unit (which were very occasionally fitted) rather than the more usual Zig.
Yours is working on gas, but the gas burner does need periodic servicing. Jets can clog, and the flue can soot up - especially if the fridge is used on gas when the ‘van is not level. So although it is working well now, be prepared for the possibility that every few years or so you may have to get the gas burner serviced.
The big, big problem area is running on 12V.
First check the obvious; when hitched up to the car and with the engine running, do you actually have power appearing across the input terminals actually at the fridge switch? If not, you have an electical fault in the wiring (either car or caravan) up to that point. A very likely problem scenario is that you have power, but at some voltage significantly below 12V (if the fridge is switched to 12V operation); we will come back to that one.
Next, if you had power appearing there, disconnect from the car and then check the resistance between the 12V terminals on the fridge switch (with, of course, the switch in the 12V position). You should get a value in the region of between 1 and 3 ohms. If it is infinite, or merely very high, then you have either a burnt-out 12V heater element or a break in the electrical connection to the heater (faulty wiring or faulty switch). Either is likely to require the fridge taking out in order to repair it.
Having effectively checked that you have a continuous circuit, the next question is whether the car is able to drive a sufficiently heavy current through the circuit; effectively that equates to whether it can maintain a full 12V actually at the fridge. That is actually a surprisingly tall order, because the fridge will take a substantial current - without looking it up (and you currently have the manuals) I think this is around 8 - 10 amps - and there are all too many opportunities for resistance in the circuit along the way, which of course drops the voltage and limits the current that can be supplied. Problem areas are (1) feed cables too light for the job (on either car or caravan), (2) dubious connections to a chassis (of either vehicle) for the return path, (3) the 12S connecting cable, and (4) the 12S plug and socket.
Part of the problem with the 12S connecting cable is having to share the common ("earth") return cable with other circuits which may also be taking a heavy current, such as battery charging.
In recent years the 12S system has been revamped in an attempt to address these difficulties, and it now provides for an independent "earth" return path for the fridge. It is well worth upgrading to this newer system; it still uses the same plug and socket, but makes use of pins that were previously spare. It is also well worth using modern 12S connecting cable (outer sheath usually grey) rather than early 12S or 12N cable, as the green "earth" return wire is significantly fatter, and also ensure that your fridge has its own dedicated heavy return wire all the way to the point where it connects to the 12S connection cable.
Then, if you are getting power to the fridge but still have a problem getting enough to it, upgrade all the fridge cables that you can to fatter ones, including the return path, and if you have any unused conductors in your 12S cable you could consider doubling them up.
The best I have ever managed to achieve on 12V in any caravan is to KEEP the fridge cold while towing, provided it was already cold when I set off; I have never managed to get the system to actually cool the fridge down while towing if it wasn’t pre-cooled before starting. If you are parked on level ground while you are loading up prior to a trip, get the fridge going then, to give yourself a head start. If possible, ensure that food placed in it, and particularly anything frozen, has first been cooled in your domestic fridge or freezer. Then, hopefully, the 12V system will keep it cold as you drive.
Incidentally much the same problem applies to charging the battery while driving; both systems rate as a great deal better than nothing, but far from fully satisfactory on their own.
Finally, not a problem in your present situation but worth mentioning for completeness, it seems that occasionally the working fluid in the fridge can develop a vapour lock. It is donkey’s years since I last met this problem, but back in the seventies it seemed to be a hardy annual amongst rallying members of the Safari Owners’ Club, and certain of the more technical members would periodically go the rounds of the rally field sorting out such problems. The technique is apparently to empty the food out, take out the fridge, turn it upside down, leave it for a few minutes, then put it the right way up again and reinstal it. I think I have had to do this just twice, once in a caravan in the seventies, and once in the late nineties for some very elderly neighbours who were using a caravan fridge as their sole domestic fridge.
They incidentally had no problems with the limited capacity, because they were of a generation that had grown up before fridges came into general domestic use in this country, and they were then in their nineties and had never changed their ways. So they used it only for milk; everything else - meat, cheese, eggs, butter, lard, etc., etc., sat on shelves in the larder, without the benefit of refrigeration!
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/06/2007 19:51
Tyres:
Now that you mention it, I have occasionally had the same advice from specialist tyre fitters. I think that it is a matter of rim design, in the context of how the tyre bead is retained onto the rim, but I don't know the details.
To my shame I cannot now remember whether my current tyres have tubes or not. Indeed I am not sure that I asked at the time; I just got a specialist tyre firm to fit appropriate tyres for the vehicle and the load, and paid the bill.
On a related topic, what I do have, and can warmly recommend, is Tyre-On bands (not sure of the spelling), which retain the tyre on the rim in the event of an unexpected deflation. I had them fitted after viewing their seriously impressive sales video, but more to the point I put one of them to the test for real a couple of years ago when I had a deflation and it performed magnificently.
There is reason to think that the deflation may well have occurred when I was doing about 60, in which case the outfit was so well controlled that I was initially unaware of the problem. It is fairly certain that when it came to my notice it was already some time after the actual deflation, when the tread started stripping off the tyre, and I felt the pulsing as it flailed against the underbody and worked out what the unusual sensation felt through the driver's seat must be due to.
By then I was in a situation where it would have been unsafe to have stopped (a twisty and comparatively narrow single-carriageway section of what was still a trunk road, still with fast moving traffic, at night) and there was no safe refuge to pull off the road for another couple of miles.
I continued at very modest speed and with due caution, and by the time I was able to find somwehere to pull off the road the tyre was a write-off and there was minor damage to the caravan wheelarch. But at all times the outfit was fully under control, and there was never any anxiety at all about handling it and never any risk of an accident; that is an impressive testimony to the Tyre-On bands.
Oliver
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Recommend Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: desburrows Sent: 04/06/2007 21:21
the fridge always used to work on 12 an 240 so hopefully it will be easy to fix but i hope u enjoy this van as much as we did have u any pics yet an did u manage to fit a new door after we lost the last
BEAR
Reply
Recommend Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: ElfynHughes Sent: 05/06/2007 10:09
Oliver, many thanks for the information - despite the fact that I have the manuals, your explanation is much more comprehensive.
Bear, nice to hear from you, thanks for the information about the fridge. I am sure I will get a great deal of enjoyment from the van. I replaced the door to the water pump with a semi-permanent hatch secured from inside. Access to the pump is easily made through the bottom of the wardrobe if necessary (and it was necessary recently when one of the hoses came off!). I have bought new window trim but haven't fitted it yet and I will need to replace the back window due to damage caused during the high winds a few months ago. As I mentioned above, the van towed very well on a long trip mostly on motorways.
I hope your 15/4 is proving satisfactory - put up some pictures, I'll show you mine if you show me yours!
I have had two outings in the last three weeks in the 12/2 I bought from Bear and Donna last year.The first one - and my first ever outing in a caravan of any kind - was to Dinas Dinlle, which is about twenty five miles from home (Anglesey) and an excellent site that I can thoroughly recommend, especially for kids, and they serve a mean Guinness in the bar. The second outing over the Bank Holiday weekend was a 650 mile round trip to Scotland. I stayed at Beecraigs Country park near Linlithgow and I would recommend this site too.
Apart from having to change a wheel (and buy a new tyre!) the whole adventure was trouble free, the van towing very well behind a Citroen Xantia with no swaying or snaking at motorway cruising speeds of 55 - 60.
I have a couple of questions the gurus may be able to help with: when I was having the tyre changed the fitter said the wheel was meant for a tubed tyre. Has anybody encountered a problem with using tubeless tyres on these rims?
My Electrolux 212 refrigerator works fine on gas but not on 12v and I suspect not on 240v, does anyone have any suggestions?
I am slightly better informed now having had a copies of various manuals from Cliff and Oliver!
First Previous 2-6 of 6 Next Last
Reply
Recommend Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert Sent: 04/06/2007 14:56
Elfyn,
Glad your outings went well. I don't know about the tyre but I thought the rims were suitable for tubeless tyres - mine has them fitted. We had an outing to the hills above Sheffield whilst grandaughter sitting last week, but this was the first time we used ours without 240v available. Our 212 refrigerator works fine on 240v but wouldn't work on gas or 12v! You could check yours on 240v at home. Plug in the 240v cable that hopefully came with it into the caravan socket and, if not suppied with caravan, a 3 pin plug adapter into the mains. Most caravan spares shops have these. A good way of charging the battery and using a hoover in the caravan too. Glad the manual was useful, and Oliver's. It looks like we both may need a 212 refrigerator manual too.
Regards,
Cliff
Reply
Recommend Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/06/2007 17:47
Refrigerator problems:
All three means of running the fridge are independent up to the point of generating heat input to set up the circulation of the coolant (by convection). So at the back of the fridge there are two separate electric heaters and a gas burner, each of which entirely separately heats the appropriate part of the system, and thus gets the working fluid moving.
If the fridge works correctly on any one of these, as in your case working correctly on gas, then you can be sure that the cooling cycle part of it is working, and the problem lies with the particular separate input system/s.
In my experience, the 240V system is by far the most reliable, so if your 240V system for the ‘van as a whole appears to be generally in good working order there is every likelihood that the fridge will operate on 240 V.
If by any chance it appears not to work, first check the obvious; fuse/s and/or circuit/breaker/s, and master switch/es. Be aware that it may or may not be still wired through the original caravan distribution unit; if the electrics have been upgraded to instal 13A sockets the fridge may now be running direct off the consumer unit. In either case it may well have its own fuse or circuit breaker, and/or possibly a master switch at the distribution unit, particularly if you happen to have a Morco unit (which were very occasionally fitted) rather than the more usual Zig.
Yours is working on gas, but the gas burner does need periodic servicing. Jets can clog, and the flue can soot up - especially if the fridge is used on gas when the ‘van is not level. So although it is working well now, be prepared for the possibility that every few years or so you may have to get the gas burner serviced.
The big, big problem area is running on 12V.
First check the obvious; when hitched up to the car and with the engine running, do you actually have power appearing across the input terminals actually at the fridge switch? If not, you have an electical fault in the wiring (either car or caravan) up to that point. A very likely problem scenario is that you have power, but at some voltage significantly below 12V (if the fridge is switched to 12V operation); we will come back to that one.
Next, if you had power appearing there, disconnect from the car and then check the resistance between the 12V terminals on the fridge switch (with, of course, the switch in the 12V position). You should get a value in the region of between 1 and 3 ohms. If it is infinite, or merely very high, then you have either a burnt-out 12V heater element or a break in the electrical connection to the heater (faulty wiring or faulty switch). Either is likely to require the fridge taking out in order to repair it.
Having effectively checked that you have a continuous circuit, the next question is whether the car is able to drive a sufficiently heavy current through the circuit; effectively that equates to whether it can maintain a full 12V actually at the fridge. That is actually a surprisingly tall order, because the fridge will take a substantial current - without looking it up (and you currently have the manuals) I think this is around 8 - 10 amps - and there are all too many opportunities for resistance in the circuit along the way, which of course drops the voltage and limits the current that can be supplied. Problem areas are (1) feed cables too light for the job (on either car or caravan), (2) dubious connections to a chassis (of either vehicle) for the return path, (3) the 12S connecting cable, and (4) the 12S plug and socket.
Part of the problem with the 12S connecting cable is having to share the common ("earth") return cable with other circuits which may also be taking a heavy current, such as battery charging.
In recent years the 12S system has been revamped in an attempt to address these difficulties, and it now provides for an independent "earth" return path for the fridge. It is well worth upgrading to this newer system; it still uses the same plug and socket, but makes use of pins that were previously spare. It is also well worth using modern 12S connecting cable (outer sheath usually grey) rather than early 12S or 12N cable, as the green "earth" return wire is significantly fatter, and also ensure that your fridge has its own dedicated heavy return wire all the way to the point where it connects to the 12S connection cable.
Then, if you are getting power to the fridge but still have a problem getting enough to it, upgrade all the fridge cables that you can to fatter ones, including the return path, and if you have any unused conductors in your 12S cable you could consider doubling them up.
The best I have ever managed to achieve on 12V in any caravan is to KEEP the fridge cold while towing, provided it was already cold when I set off; I have never managed to get the system to actually cool the fridge down while towing if it wasn’t pre-cooled before starting. If you are parked on level ground while you are loading up prior to a trip, get the fridge going then, to give yourself a head start. If possible, ensure that food placed in it, and particularly anything frozen, has first been cooled in your domestic fridge or freezer. Then, hopefully, the 12V system will keep it cold as you drive.
Incidentally much the same problem applies to charging the battery while driving; both systems rate as a great deal better than nothing, but far from fully satisfactory on their own.
Finally, not a problem in your present situation but worth mentioning for completeness, it seems that occasionally the working fluid in the fridge can develop a vapour lock. It is donkey’s years since I last met this problem, but back in the seventies it seemed to be a hardy annual amongst rallying members of the Safari Owners’ Club, and certain of the more technical members would periodically go the rounds of the rally field sorting out such problems. The technique is apparently to empty the food out, take out the fridge, turn it upside down, leave it for a few minutes, then put it the right way up again and reinstal it. I think I have had to do this just twice, once in a caravan in the seventies, and once in the late nineties for some very elderly neighbours who were using a caravan fridge as their sole domestic fridge.
They incidentally had no problems with the limited capacity, because they were of a generation that had grown up before fridges came into general domestic use in this country, and they were then in their nineties and had never changed their ways. So they used it only for milk; everything else - meat, cheese, eggs, butter, lard, etc., etc., sat on shelves in the larder, without the benefit of refrigeration!
Hope this helps,
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/06/2007 19:51
Tyres:
Now that you mention it, I have occasionally had the same advice from specialist tyre fitters. I think that it is a matter of rim design, in the context of how the tyre bead is retained onto the rim, but I don't know the details.
To my shame I cannot now remember whether my current tyres have tubes or not. Indeed I am not sure that I asked at the time; I just got a specialist tyre firm to fit appropriate tyres for the vehicle and the load, and paid the bill.
On a related topic, what I do have, and can warmly recommend, is Tyre-On bands (not sure of the spelling), which retain the tyre on the rim in the event of an unexpected deflation. I had them fitted after viewing their seriously impressive sales video, but more to the point I put one of them to the test for real a couple of years ago when I had a deflation and it performed magnificently.
There is reason to think that the deflation may well have occurred when I was doing about 60, in which case the outfit was so well controlled that I was initially unaware of the problem. It is fairly certain that when it came to my notice it was already some time after the actual deflation, when the tread started stripping off the tyre, and I felt the pulsing as it flailed against the underbody and worked out what the unusual sensation felt through the driver's seat must be due to.
By then I was in a situation where it would have been unsafe to have stopped (a twisty and comparatively narrow single-carriageway section of what was still a trunk road, still with fast moving traffic, at night) and there was no safe refuge to pull off the road for another couple of miles.
I continued at very modest speed and with due caution, and by the time I was able to find somwehere to pull off the road the tyre was a write-off and there was minor damage to the caravan wheelarch. But at all times the outfit was fully under control, and there was never any anxiety at all about handling it and never any risk of an accident; that is an impressive testimony to the Tyre-On bands.
Oliver
Reply
Recommend Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: desburrows Sent: 04/06/2007 21:21
the fridge always used to work on 12 an 240 so hopefully it will be easy to fix but i hope u enjoy this van as much as we did have u any pics yet an did u manage to fit a new door after we lost the last
BEAR
Reply
Recommend Message 6 of 6 in Discussion
From: ElfynHughes Sent: 05/06/2007 10:09
Oliver, many thanks for the information - despite the fact that I have the manuals, your explanation is much more comprehensive.
Bear, nice to hear from you, thanks for the information about the fridge. I am sure I will get a great deal of enjoyment from the van. I replaced the door to the water pump with a semi-permanent hatch secured from inside. Access to the pump is easily made through the bottom of the wardrobe if necessary (and it was necessary recently when one of the hoses came off!). I have bought new window trim but haven't fitted it yet and I will need to replace the back window due to damage caused during the high winds a few months ago. As I mentioned above, the van towed very well on a long trip mostly on motorways.
I hope your 15/4 is proving satisfactory - put up some pictures, I'll show you mine if you show me yours!