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Post by Brian M on Oct 28, 2008 12:44:35 GMT
From: Caz_n_Neil (Original Message) Sent: 23/04/2006 23:02
Hi all we are considering changing the 4 stud 13'' steel wheels on our caravan for alloys has anyone already done this? If so what wheels did you choose? What was/is the offset and PCD required to fit alloys? any recomendations anyone?
From: Brian Sent: 24/04/2006 10:35
Hi Neil
Shame you didn't mention this last nught on Chat. I have period alloys on my Safari that I bought second hand from a wheel and tyre dealer local to me. All I did was to take a wheel to him and ask what he had. The set of alloys did not have the right pcd, nor did it have the large central hole that is required to fit the drums.
But one hour later he had drilled five new holes in the wheels and they fitted perfectly. All for £20 the pair. I then modified a Volvo 760 central plate to cover the centres so the redundant holes were covered. A bit of elbow grease to bring back the shine and job done!
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Post by Brian M on Jan 29, 2009 14:09:42 GMT
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 02/07/2007 21:48
To help the various members who periodically request weights, the following are the manufacturer's published masses and tyre sizes and pressures.
In all cases the order is: average mass ex-works, maximum gross mass, tyres
The manufacturer’s choice of punctuation for the model name (E.g. 12-2, 12/2, 12.2, etc) was not consistent, so in each case I have used the punctuation used by the manufacturer in the publication from which I have extracted the particular data.
Taken from 1980 Sales Brochure
Model Unladen Max Weight, Tyre size
12/2 770, 948, 155 x 13 reinforced
13/4 800. 985, 155 x 13 reinforced
14/2 820, 1009, 155 x 13 reinforced
15/4 930, 1141, 175 x 13
17/2 1040, 1275, 185 x 14 reinforced
17/4 1050, 1286, 185 x 14 reinforced
17/S 1080, 1300, 185 x 14 reinforced
Taken from data table at back of 1978 Owners’ Handbook
Model Unladen Max Weight, Tyre size and pressure
12.2 750, 996, 155 x 13 R at 39 p.s.i.
13.4 820, 1032, 155 x 13 R at 39 p.s.i.
14.2 820, 1100, 185 x 13 SR at 33 p.s.i.
15.4 920, 1200. 185 x 13 SR at 33 p.s.i.
17.2 1090, 1300, 185 x 14R at 43 p.s.i.
17.4 1040, 1300, 185 x 14R at 43 p.s.i.
17.S 1070, 1300, 185 x 14R at 43 p.s.i.
However the late Ted Billington, in old age, told me that he had designed the 17 ft chassis to carry a total mass of 30 cwt, which is around 1530 kg. In modern parlance that would seem to be the Maximum Technically Permissible Mass, and the Safaris deliberately plated the caravans at lower than that, possibly to encourage sales to owners with less massive towcars.
Ted also told me that with the early ones he uprated the springs, in the course of a Safari Owners’ Club Continental Rally, when he realized the extent to which members were loading up their caravans with duty-free, so that they were sitting well down on their suspension! He did this initially by a visit to the local scrapyards to source some Renault coil springs which would fit inside the existing Safari springs, and then after the rally he modified the design to include inner springs.
If you do take a 17 to its Maximum Technically Permissible Mass, bear in mind that the tyres will need to be similarly uprated. If you switch to 6-ply 185 x 14C at 54 p.s.i. they will carry that load, and there are even 8-ply tyres available which will carry still more.
Taken from the 1970 Sales Documents
Model Unladen Max Weight, Tyre size and pressure
11/2 12 cwt ex works, no other data available
13/2 15¼ cwt ex works, 18¼ cwt max, 5.90 x 13 6-ply (cross-ply) at 36 p.s.i.
13/4 15¼ cwt ex works, 18¼ cwt max, 5.90 x 13 6-ply (cross-ply) at 36 p.s.i.
15/2 18¼ cwt ex works, 23½ cwt max, 6.40 x 15 6-ply (cross-ply) at 36 p.s.i.
15/4 18¼ cwt ex works, 23½ cwt max, 6.40 x 15 6-ply (cross-ply) at 36 p.s.i.
17/4 20¼ cwt or 21 cwt ex works (the manufacturer’s documents differ!), 26 cwt, 6.70 x 15 (cross-ply) at 36 p.s.i.
Hope this helps some of you.
Oliver
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Recommend Message 4 of 5 in Discussion
From: Avalon_Tor Sent: 04/08/2008 10:06
Hi Oliver,
Having read your post regarding weights & tyres I'd just like to clarify, for my own piece of mind, the tyre type for my 12/2 1978.
Your post states 12.2 750, 996, 155 x 13 R at 39 p.s.i. but no mention of being reinforced, as with the 1980 model. The tyres that are on our 12/2 at the moment are both reinforced, but all the tyre places that I go have difficulty in finding any from their suppliers and they have suggested van tyres as replacements or an ordinary road tyre.
Is the 1978 manual referring to a standard road tyre using 39 p.s.i.?
I raise it off the wheels when storing.
Regards
Mike
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Recommend Message 5 of 5 in Discussion
From: ClassicSafariman Sent: 07/09/2008 21:46
Mike,
Apologies for delay; have only just seen your post, having been away sailing for some weeks - when weather allowed, in what passed for a summer this year!
My understanding is that 155 x 13 R is indeed a reinforced size; sorry for any confusion there, but I copied verbatim from the manufacturer's published data.
Your tyre dealers are the professional experts, which I am not, but my own view is that their suggestion makes good sense. Almost inevitably tyre sizes change over the years, and what were once standard sizes become deleted, so we may need to accept a modern alternative that will do the job.
Try obtaining tyres for a pre-1950 car, e.g. 450 x 17 (for a 1948 Morris 8) or 550 x 17 (for a 1947 P2 Rover 16) and you will have ample evidence! These sizes (and many others) are basically available nowadays only via the specialist vintage tyre dealers; e.g. Vintage Tyre Supplies (www.vintagetyres.com).
I have just checked this firm's website for your size, and see that - at a price - they are listing a 155HR-13 Michelin XAS FF, which they describe as "Car tyre, race, road legal", at £112-50. That would probably do the job, although you would need to check the load rating, but it strikes me as serious overkill and very expensive.
I see no objection to using van tyres. The crucial points are that the tyres should fit the rims, that they should have a sufficient ply rating, and that they should be rated to carry at least the relevant load. You have already told your tyre dealers the original specification, if you now tell them weight of your caravan I am sure that you can then rely on their advice.
I suggest great caution with using standard car tyres, except perhaps on the late model 15/4, which is the one case where the manufacurer did not specify a reinforced tyre (although they did for the corresponding earlier model, and there was only a very marginal difference in the maximum laden weight). At one point I tried this, in a purely static test, with my 17/2, and the result was so unsuitable that I changed the tyre before the caravan moved from its parked position. When I parted with my Volvo 240 I had a spare tyre hanging around, which happened to be the correct size (185 x 14) but not reinforced, and (I presume, now, some years later) with a lower maximum pressure. At the time I happened to be in need of a spare tyre for the caravan, so I tried this out, but even at the maximum pressure for the tyre the caravan was so well down on that side, and the tyre so obviously underinflated for the load, that I realised that I couldn't use it.
My most recent replacement tyre for my present 17/2 is an 8-ply rated "commercial" tyre, presumably a van tyre, with a substantially higher load rating than the original, and I am so pleased with it that when I am next due to replace the remaining road tyre and the spare I intend to try to match this one.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Post by Brian M on Jan 31, 2009 23:30:40 GMT
From: talltrees122 (Original Message) Sent: 08/03/2006 11:30
Hi,
I need two new tyres for my Safari and need to take both wheels off of the caravan and take them to the garage for changing.
How do i do this? Where do i jack? Is it easy to get the wheel out from under the wheel arches? Can i leave the caravan on axle stands for a few hours?
Any help much appreciated.
Thanks, Neil.
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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 08/03/2006 17:10
In one respect the procedure depends on the date of your 'van.
For pre-1979 'vans (i.e. no wheel spats), jack under the main chassis girder (i.e. the longitudinal one), not the axle, as close as you can conveniently get to the axle; this will allow the wheel to drop relative to the bodywork. Then when you take the wheel off the drum, if you have jacked up to a reasonable height, there will be enough space to lift the wheel out. You will have to tilt it slightly (inwards at the top and outwards at the bottom) so that it passes between the brake drum and the bodywork.
For 1979 'vans onwards, fitted with wheel spats, first remove the spats. They are secured by an aluminium channel bent around the upper edge of the spat, and located in position by a single screw in each of the two (bottom) corners of the spat; remove these two screws and the spat can then drop out of the channel. The aperture through which you then remove the wheel is somewhat bigger than on the earlier models (I think - although I have never actually done a like-for-like check). You might therefore get away with jacking up the axle directly, although for convenience I still choose to jack the main chassis girder as with the earlier models. With the 'van suitably jacked and the wheel spats removed, removing the wheels is then very easy and the method obvious.
Ensure that you site the jack with care, so that you don't lift by a chassis fitting (that might not take the load), and also so that there is no risk of the jack tilting as it lifts.
Yes, in principle you can safely leave the 'van on axle stands, but for safety I would always use two stands per side, one under the axle and one under the main chassis girder; set their heights so that when you lower the 'van onto them the one under the axle starts to take some load, and then lower the jack until the second one (under the chassis) also starts to take some load as the suspension compresses.
Even safer, fit your spare wheel, and take just one wheel at a time to the garage.
Having said that, I personally have always found it far easier to take the entire 'van to a specialist tyre fitter, and let them have the manual work of taking the wheels off; any of them will have the industrial-standard jacks available to enable them to do it will far less effort than it will take you, and in my experience it takes them very little time to change both tyres. How easy this option is for you will of course depend on how easy it is to get your 'van out of storage and onto the road.
You may need to tell them the torque setting when they replace the wheels; that has already been posted, albeit that it was 12 months ago.
See, on the General board, “Awning & diy service advice sought” (date of latest message in this string 12/3/05); Message 2 in this string and the attachment to Message 4 give a great deal of service information.
I wonder whether Brian is able to copy that attachment (and perhaps Message 2 in the string) to the "Documents" section, under an appropriate title.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 3 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 08/03/2006 17:11
Should this entire string be moved to the Technical board?
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 4 of 6 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 08/03/2006 19:18
I went through a similar excercise last year and used a trolley jack on girder near to the hub, took the wheel off and lowered the van brake drum onto blocks of timber and repeated the exercise on the other side. I also used the four corner jacks as a steady together with the jockey wheel.
Some advice on tyres, go for Goodyear GT tyres which are steel wall reinforced and recommended for caravans. Also the 155 x 13 is no longer available, which was the recommended size for my 13/4 so I fitted 165 x 13 with adequate clearance and having done some 3000 miles last year I can fully vouch for my choice.
Hope you are not getting "tyred" but some further advice, check the inner wall of the steel wheel for a small radial pressing which stops the tyre if punctured dropping into the well.
If it is not there then have an inner tube fitted, I had inner tubes fitted regardless at the recommendation of the who guy does my tyres for my vintage cars. I know that Cheltenham Caravan Owners recommend the same procedure too.
Hurry up and make your choice as tyres are going up in price due to inflation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Recommend Delete Message 5 of 6 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 09/03/2006 17:14
Re ensuring that the tyre, if punctured, doesn't drop down into the well; even better advice is to fit Tyron bands.
I had them fitted several years ago, after consultation with my caravan dealer and having been impressed by the manufacturer's literature and promotional video. I then never had occasion to put them to the test until 18 months ago, but that test was a demanding one and the Tyron band acquitted itself with flying colours.
I was towing down to Gloucestershire, and only a very short time before I was alerted to the problem I had been towing on a straight bit of road at a steady 60 mph. Then very soon after that, by which time I had turned onto a slightly twisty single-carriageway road and was doing an appropriate speed for that road - perhaps 45 mph - I started to feel a vibration which I deduced must be due to a deflated tyre.
Unfortunately this was after dark, there were no suitable places to pull off the road to stop, and I felt that the road was too twisty to allow me to safely stop on the carriageway. I therefore slowed down to perhaps 20 mph, and continued driving with what I knew to be a deflated tyre until I could find somewhere to pull off the road, which turned out to be a distance of about a mile and a half.
It then transpired from the condition of the tyre that it had deflated some little time previously, and that the vibration I had felt was the effect of a sizeable length of the tread which had started to strip off it and which was flailing the underside of the caravan as the wheel rotated. Before the tread started to strip off the tyre the situation had been so well controlled as to produce no symptoms. At the very least I had been doing some 45 mph on a twisty road with the tyre deflated, and it is entirely possible that it deflated previously while I had been doing 60 mph, and I had initially been unaware of the deflation because it was so well controlled.
Although the tyre was completely destroyed and the flailing tread had done some fairly minor damage to the caravan wheelarch, there was no serious damage and the outfit was never under anything less than full control. We periodically hear of deflations on twisty roads and/or at main road speeds which result in major accidents and total destruction of the caravan, so I feel that these bands had turned a potential major disaster into a minor inconvenience, and my experience fully vindicates my decision to fit them.
And I include the usual disclaimer; I have no connection with the manufacturer and no involvement in selling the product.
Regards,
Oliver
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Post by Brian M on Jan 31, 2009 23:32:16 GMT
From: talltrees122 (Original Message) Sent: 12/03/2006 20:17
First off all thanks for the advice on removing the wheels i managed that job a piece of cake.
Next problem was the replacement of the tyres.
It was found out at the tyre shop that my wheels had tubeless tyres fitted (175 R 13 C) with inner tubes inside. This apparently is a very big no no as the tubes rub excessivley on the tube due to their construction (if puntured the tyre goes down like a balloon and comes off the old style rims).
I was advised to get new wheels which will take tubeless tyres on there own.
Help, Help, where can i get some? My local caravan shop has wheel rims that fit the studs spacing but the wheel is a good inch widder.
Any help is very much appreciated as i need to go away in the caravan this Friday 17th March.
It would be great if i could by some new wheels over the phone and get them delivered in the week.
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Recommend Delete Message 2 of 13 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 12/03/2006 20:34
While I am not an expert on tyres, and can take no responsibility for the following, I have never heard of rims to take tubeless tyres, nor that it is a no-no to put tubes inside tubeless tyres.
I have done it many times on classic cars, when original rims were not holding air and tubes were the only answer. It is very common on ageing alloy wheels on classic cars as the wheel itself can become porous.
Is the tyre company saying that your rims will not hold air in tubeless tyres? Due to internal corrosion perhaps?
Tyres can come off rims in the event of a deflation but in my opinion this should not be the criteria for deciding whether to fit tubes or not.
You will be very lucky to find two rims by Friday, in your shoes I would talk to a few more tyre dealers.
Brian Miller
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Recommend Delete Message 3 of 13 in Discussion
From: talltrees122 Sent: 12/03/2006 20:47
I am deffinately no tyre expert either but know i need to change what tyres i have as the side walls have some big splits in them.
Two tyre dealers have said that they would be unwilling to place inner tubes in tubeless tyres designed not to take inner tubes.
They say that tubeless tyres have a bead that protrudes inwards and pushs/rubs against the inner tube. This is worse apparentley when using commercial tyres with 6 or more ply's (i.e. caravan tyres).
Do my tyres at 175 R 13 C sound the right size?
Thanks for any info, i will respond with anything helpful i may learn in this process.
Neil.
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Recommend Delete Message 4 of 13 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 12/03/2006 20:56
Sorry to hear of the continuing difficulties.
I cannot be absolutely categorical on the point, but I am not aware that any of the several successive Safaris in my family have ever run on anything other than tubeless tyres; that amounts to very near certainty that we have always run on tubeless tyres.
That covers 2-berth Safaris from 12-2 to 17-2, and from 1974 to 1982 model years, but I regret I have no knowledge of earlier models; however although I don't remember the date of yours I suspect it has appeared on the Group pages somewhere, and if memory serves correctly you are well within that period.
It is not clear whether you have actually been advised that your wheels are unsuitable for tubeless tyres or have merely assumed it just because the previous owner fitted tubes. Don't give any special credence to the fact that the previous owner fitted tubes; whether mistaken or not there are all sorts of reasons why he may have done so - ranging from a belief that this is belt and braces, to persistent leakage problems, to being unable to obtain tubeless tyres at some stage (which may date back to much earlier than when these particular covers were fitted!)
If however you have actually been advised that your wheels are an unsuitable design for tubeless tyres it is worth re-checking that advice, by a second opinion if necessary.
If advised that they are indeed unsuitable, find out why; it may just be a matter of preventing the tyre bead from dropping into the well if the tyre deflates. If so, I have already recommended that you consider fitting Tyron bands for other reasons, and if as a bonus that would solve your problem of suitability for tubeless tyres that would seem to be the end of the problem. Not all tyre specialists stock them, although I know of at least one (in Gloucester) that does, but I am sure that all major caravan dealers do.
I would be immensely surprised if you really cannot fit tubeless tyres to your wheels, so do make very sure of this point before you jump to changing the wheels.
However if you really do have to change wheels, in other circumstances the first step would be to ascertain whether yours are or are not original Safari wheels, and if they are not then an option might have been to have sought out the correct ones second-hand. Unfortunately that will all take time, and it is not realistic complete that process before Friday. If push comes to shove I can only suggest that if your local caravan dealer has wheels in stock that fit the studs you need to check whether they can be fitted with tyres that will meet the load rating of the caravan, and then whether there is adequate clearance for them. This might mean heavier duty tyres than are normal for those rims, or wider tyres than are normal, and to be safe about that you may need to consult either your caravan dealer's service department or a specialist tyre house (or perhaps get the service department to consult with the specialist tyre house).
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 5 of 13 in Discussion
From: robthechemist Sent: 12/03/2006 21:00
you are right,. it is a big no no and having had a blow out at 60 with brand new tyres with tubes that shouldnt have been there i can vouch that the tyre dealer is correct. This happened on the school trailer and we just replaced the wheels, purchasing from a local trailer dealer in Fenton Stoke on Trent who had them on his shelf.
Rob the chemist
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Recommend Delete Message 6 of 13 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 12/03/2006 22:09
Tyre Sizes:
Whether 175 R 13 C is the right size depends on both model and year. Safari Caravans' own literature gives different information at different dates, presumably because they slightly lightened the construction of the caravans.
And, in passing, I see that I have previously been mistaken in my belief as to the correct designation of different models (e.g. should it be 14-2, 14/2, or 14.2 ?); I now see that the manufacturers themselves used different variants of the model designation between the 1978 Handbook and the 1980 Sales Brochure, and that in the 1970 sales documents they used two different designations simultaneously! Thus, in the 1970 sales documents they simultaneously used both 13/4 and 13-4, etc.; in the 1978 Handbook they used 13.4, etc.; and in the 1980 Sales Brochure they used 13/4. It seems they used that every one of the variants at some stage, and with no apparent logic or consistency in the choice.
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Manufacturer's original tyre sizes and maximum gross mass for different models, as per the 1980 Sales Brochure:
12/2, 13/4, 14/2:
All run on 155 x 13 reinforced; I suspect that that may possibly correspond now to 155 R 13 C.
Maximum gross mass:
12/2 948 kg
13/4 985 kg
14/2 1009 kg
I also have a more general tyre data sheet for tyres used on caravans and trailers, and this size (155 SR 13 Reinforced) is listed only under the section for car tyres (there are also sections for van 'C' tyres, light truck tyres, scooter tyres, and industrial tyres, all except the last two in both radial and cross-ply sizes). For this size the maximum axle load is quoted as 1045 kg for speeds up to 62 mph, which puts the MGM of the caravan just within the rating of the tyre (by a fairly narrow margin - so don't overload unless you also uprate the tyres ... ... ), and it goes on to quote the rating as only 950 kg at speeds over 62 mph (so, except for the 12/2, if you exceed the UK speed limit you will be outside the rating of your tyres ... ...). However I believe that the "S" part of this size designation is a speed rating, and if you intend towing on the Continent at higher speeds it is possible to get tyres rated for a higher speed.
Tyre pressure not quoted in the Safari Sales Brochure, but 42 p.s.i. (2.9 bar) in the tyre data sheet.
15/4: 175 x 13 (not stated to be reinforced). Maximum gross mass 1141 kg
In the general tyre data sheet, this size is again listed only as a car tyre size, and the data sheet quotes the maximum axle load for these tyres as 1166 kg up to 62 mph, and 1060 kg at over 62 mph. Similar comments regarding both overloading and speed limitations apply, and for this model note just how narrow is the load margin - a mere 19 kg.
Tyre pressure not quoted in the Safari Sales Brochure, but 36 p.s.i. (2.5 bar) in the tyre data sheet.
17/2, 17/4, 17/S: All run on 185 x 14 reinforced; I suspect that that corresponds now to 185 R 14 C.
Maximum gross mass:
17/2 1275 kg
17/4 1286 kg
17/S 1300 kg
The tyre data sheet lists both 185 SR 14 Reinforced as a car size, and 185 R 14 C 6PR as a van "C" tyre.
The former is rated at maximum axle load of 1474 kg up to 62 mph and 1340 kg at over 62 mph, which seems to be a much more generous margin, and the van tyre is rated at 1628 kg up to 62 mph and 1550 kg at over 62 mph.
Tyre pressure not quoted in the Safari Sales Brochure, but in the tyre data sheet quoted as 46 p.s.i. (3.2 bar) for the car tyre and 54 p.s.i. (3.75 bar) for the van "C" tyre.
However two years earlier, the 1978 owners' Handbook gives rather different sizes for certain models:
12.2 155 x 13R at 39 p.s.i. (maximum gross mass 996 kg)
13.4 155 x 13R at 39 p.s.i. (maximum gross mass 1032 kg)
14.2 185 x 13SR at 33 p.s.i. (maximum gross mass 1100 kg)
15.4 185 x 13SR at 33 p.s.i. (maximum gross mass 1200 kg)
17.2, 17.4, 17.S All 185 x 14R at 43 p.s.i. (maximum gross mass 1300 kg)
It seems that the caravans were slightly lightened between 1978 and 1980, and that the tyre sizes were then adjusted where appropriate.
If in doubt about whether you can comply with these maximum gross masses (which does seem to be a problem with Safaris) I would recommend that you regard the above tyre specifications as minima; if you can fit a tyre with a slightly greater load rating it will do no harm at all.
On the matter of keeping within the designated maximum weight, many years ago I had it on no less an authority than Ted Billington himself, the engineer who designed the chassis (ang who was Managing Director of B&B Trailers, who supplied them) that on the return trip from one Safari Caravan Owners' Club continental rally so many of the caravans were so heavily laden with "duty-free" that they were seriously down on their suspension. Certainly for the 17' 'vans, during the course of the rally Ted then sourced and fitted additional coil springs (he used Renault car springs) to fit inside the existing coil springs of the relevant 'vans in order to uprate the suspension, and he then incorporated that modification into the suspension on later chassis!
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 7 of 13 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 12/03/2006 22:17
Tyre Sizes:
In my previous posting, "15/4: 175 x 13 (not stated to be reinforced)."
I inadvertently omitted what I had intended to say; the general tyre data sheet does not list a reinforced version at this size.
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 8 of 13 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 12/03/2006 22:26
So why if you have a sports car with wire wheels and tubeless tyres it is okay to fit tubes!
Inner tubes are fitted to tubeless tyres on wire wheels because with out an iner tube the air would leak out through the wire wheel nipples in the rim.
So ,with say an E type Jag on wires capable of 150 mph we have radial tubeless tyres with inner tubes. If on the caravan wheel a tyre can as you say press on the inner tube so what if the inner tube burst the air still cannot escape.
What does amaze me is that in the last four years I have bought three Cheltenham caravans all on remoulds and non re inforced walled car tyres. The same with my SAFARI 13/4 I boughtlast year the tyres were old and perished. The two other SAFARI`s I bought for breaking had tyres well past their sell by date. So I reckon caravanners who have had blow outs in the past it may be down to age old tyres.
My Volvo V70 runs on Pirrelli 6000 tyres and although they were well off the wear bar the walls were badly cracked due to the tyres being 5 years old and yet they had only been on the car 3 years.
Regards
Michelin Ellis
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Recommend Delete Message 9 of 13 in Discussion
From: Sylvesteruk1 Sent: 12/03/2006 22:41
Hi its Michelin again,
Looking in my 1979 SAFARI SPEC MANUAL we have 12.2 and 13.4 on 155SR 13 at 39PSI and 14.2 and 15.4 on 185SR 13 at 35PSI but no mention of reinforced yet the 17.2, 17.4 and 17S have same size 185SR 14 Reinforced at 43PSI so my guess is that there is a printing error and the reinforced is mising from the 14.2 and 15.4
The same sizes are quoted in the 1978 SAFARI SPEC MANUAL with R or SR after the tyre size. but not specifically stating re inforced.
The best test for the tyre is to run over a SAFARI engraved glass and see if deflates!
Good night
Mike
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Recommend Delete Message 10 of 13 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 13/03/2006 08:04
For my Safari I have a set of period alloy wheels that are slightly wider than the normal steel wheels.
My tyre supplier recommended 185x13 Nankang 8 PLY tyres to cope with the maximum loaded weight. I believe these are small van tyres, and are fitted without tubes. Just checked my bill and they were £39 inc VAT each fitted.
I run them at 36 psi, and over winter, I pump them up to 45psi that is the maximum rated pressure.
I agree with Mike about tubes in tubeless tyres but would ask if there is a new change to the inside construction of tyres that causes problems with tubes.
Reading modern caravan forums about tyres, it seems the concensus is that Caravan tyres need primarily to be right for the weight they are carrying, remember on only two wheels rather than four on the car, and that considerations of grip and cornering ability are less important as they are not transmitting power to the road and travel at lower speeds that cars tyres can be subjected to.
I would hope that we are all aware of the problems of ageing tyres and concentrate on the sidewalls rather than just checking the tread depth.
I do have one Safari wheel, 13 inch for sale the old tyre on it did not have a tube in it and still held air. So the rim is clearly compatible with tubeless tyres.
Call me on on 01702 520220 or during the day on 07961 170375 if this is of interest.
Brian
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Recommend Delete Message 11 of 13 in Discussion
From: talltrees122 Sent: 13/03/2006 19:43
Ok today i took a third opinion on the wheels/tyres debate.
His opinion was the wheels could be fitted with just tubelss tyres and no inner tube but they looked very rusty and thin in places.
So i have called a very good caravan breakers in Oakham, Rutland and will pick up two second hand wheels that are in better condition and fit brand new 8 ply tubeless tyres to these.
Thanks for all your great info, hopefully by the end of this weekends trip i will have new questions to answer and some pictures for the gallery.
Neil.
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Recommend Delete Message 12 of 13 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 14/03/2006 00:20
Since you say that your wheels look rusty and thin in places I wholeheartedly concur with replacing them, as an urgent matter of safety.
Around thirty years ago, towing my then caravan (a 1952 Eccles Coronation) from Milford Haven back home to North Devon, I was mildly concerned about a slight "clicking" sound, and on timing it and doing some quick mental arithmetic while driving I identified it as being once per wheel revolution. I thought that I had probably picked up a piece of gravel in the tyre tread, but although I stopped several times to try to deal with it I was unable to find the offending piece of gravel (as I imagined it to be).
My final stop, perhaps 200 miles into a total distance of around 250 miles, proved to be my salvation. The noise got worse, and I stopped in a layby to investigate further, but was still unable to identify the source of the continual clicking. However I found it immediately I pulled away again, fortunately within the first yard or two and while I was still doing only about walking pace.
The nearside wheel rim pulled right off the wheel centre, the caravan chassis dropped to the road, and the tyre and wheel rim emerged up through the floor, via a hole which it made in the base of the wardrobe as it crashed through.
Further investigation revealed that the wheel was rusty and thin, and it had started a crack which over the course of just this one journey had then spread right round the wheel until it finally failed completely. I shudder to think what the consequences might have been if this had collapsed at main road speeds instead of while little more than stationary. Ever since then I have been assiduous at doing periodic inspections of my wheels, and while I have them off for inspection I deal with any rust (initially by vigorous wire brushing, long before it reaches the stage of being dangerously thin) and then I keep the blind side of them well painted; I use Hammerite, and am prepared to repaint when appearance suggests that it might be needed.
And a final rider, for that caravan it then turned out that it used the same wheels as were fitted to Morris Minors. In more modern times I have subsequently heard of later caravan manufacturers using Wolkswagen wheels, with the implication (at the time) that instead of specifying and building their own wheels they used whatever automotive ones in suitable sizes they could readily buy wholesale from car manufacturers. It is therefore possible that one might well find a car wheel type that fits one's Safari - as indeed Brian appears to have done(?).
Regards,
Oliver
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Recommend Delete Message 13 of 13 in Discussion
From: Brian Sent: 14/03/2006 07:59
Ah - so everyone was right in this thread.
I now think that the first tyre dealer was against fitting tubes owing to the poor internal condition of the wheels, flaking rust could well rip the tube to pieces. That would also preclude the use of tubeless tyres as the inside rim area would not form a perfect seal with the tyre.
I have not located a car wheel that fits our Safaris. The two spares that I have are both marked B&B (the chassis manufacturers).
I wanted alloys to match the Minilites on my Volvo and was quoted £250 per wheel to have a pair made specially. I have an Alloy wheel wholesaler nearby and went there to try to find a cheaper alternative. When they examined my wheel they found that the stud pattern was not a current standard, and that the centre "bearing protrusion" was larger than is currently seen. It was unlikely a new wheel could be found to suit. What they did have was a pair of very grubby period alloys with a large flat area that could be drilled to match the stud pattern and the big hole in the middle. So for a cost of £10 per wheel and £5 for drilling the pair I had a pair that would fit. A lot of elbow grease with wet and dry sandpaper and Autosol brought the shine back and a modified Volvo chrome centre plate covers the nuts and I think they look good.
I do check my wheelnuts a bit more often than I would do on my car, but so far have not found them loose even after 500 fairly high speed miles in France last year.
I'm glad all has turned out well for Talltrees and hope he now enjoys his trip this weekend.
Brian Miller
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Post by Brian M on Feb 1, 2009 11:19:33 GMT
From: ElfynHughes (Original Message) Sent: 17/05/2007 15:28
What are the correct tyre presuures for a 1980 12/2? Better still, does anyone have an owner's manual that I could copy - all costs will be refunded of course.
Regards
Elfyn
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Recommend Message 2 of 9 in Discussion
From: Safariconvert Sent: 17/05/2007 16:13
Elfyn,
My 1980 manual which came with my 1980 12/2 states a maximum pressure only - 39psi. This is the value when loaded to the maximum laden weight which is 948kg, average weight ex-works is 770kg. If you want a copy of the manual I could scan and copy it.
Regards,
Cliff
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Recommend Message 3 of 9 in Discussion
From: ElfynHughes Sent: 18/05/2007 12:30
Cliff, many thanks for your reply, it looks as if somewhere about 30 - 35 should be about right for a lightly loaded van. Thanks also for your offer of a copy of your manual, I would be very grateful if if could let me have it. Do you also have a manual for the fridge? Mine is an Electrolux 212. I have emailed you my home address.
Regards, Elfyn
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Recommend Message 4 of 9 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 24/05/2007 00:20
Elfyn,
My grovelling apologies. I promised a very long time ago to lend you a manual, and I can only plead that I have been thoroughly disorganised, plus the fact that I have been more than a little swamped with other activities. So despite my best intentions it hasn't happened, and indeed caravanning has not merely taken a back seat since last August - the 'van hasn't even been touched!
("Count not his broken pledges as a crime.
He MEANT them; HOW he meant them - at the time!" Anon., referring to Lloyd George.)
I shall be on Anglesey over the coming Bank Holiday weekend, running a sailing event at Traeth Bychan, and in anticipation that we may be able to meet I have now put my complete file into the car in readiness. Since most of the documents are no longer replaceable I am reluctant to trust it to the post, but you are more than welcome to borrow it if you are able to collect it, and you can return it at our mutual convenience - I suggest August, when I will again be sailing at Traeth B.
The file contains the manufacturer's Owners' Handbook, the chassis handbook (several generations of it), operating and maintenance handbooks and installation instructions for much of the ancillary equipment, tables of tyres sizes with their loads and pressures and speed ratings, etc., etc.
I hope to arrive early Friday evening, and will be staying at the Glanrafon (can't tow boat and caravan simultaneously, and can't afford the time for the double journey at both ends, never mind the fuel cost), and probably eating out. You can contact me on my mobile, 07754-523325.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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Recommend Message 5 of 9 in Discussion
From: ElfynHughes Sent: 24/05/2007 13:04
I have received copies of the 1980 Owner's Manual and a Zig CF6 manual from Cliff - many thanks.
Oliver, Thanks for replying and for your kind offer. I am away this coming weekend, but we should be able to meet up briefly on Friday evening as I am not going until Saturday morning. I would very much appreciate borrowing your file and making copies of some of the manuals. I will contact your mobile early Friday evening to arrange a mutually convenient time.
Regards
Elfyn
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Recommend Message 6 of 9 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 29/05/2007 13:23
Elfyn,
Sorry we weren't able to meet this weekend. I have left the file with the landlord of the Glanrafon Hotel, as arranged, for you to collect. It is a fairly fat, and full, A4 ring binder.
Regards,
Oliver
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Recommend Message 7 of 9 in Discussion
From: ElfynHughes Sent: 04/06/2007 14:20
Many thanks, Cliff and Oliver, for the manuals. I now know which knobs to twiddle, and why nothing happened when I twiddled them before!
I still have a problem with the fridge, but I have mentioned that in another post.
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Recommend Message 8 of 9 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 04/08/2007 12:48
Elfyn,
All being well, I shall be on the Caravan Club site (Cae Mawr) where we met last year, from 12th to about 22nd August. That might be the most convenient way for you to return my file of manuals, etc.
There is a slight caveat from my end; for the second year in succession my Discovery has apparently blown a head gasket just as I was going away on holiday, and I have had to return home on a breakdown truck. Fortunately last year's major and expensive repair is still under warranty.
I think I can again borrow one of my brother's cars, but if not then I shall have to switch to tenting for this trip, which will mean a different site.
Mobile number is 07754-523325.
Oliver
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Recommend Message 9 of 9 in Discussion
From: OliverShaw1 Sent: 23/08/2007 15:23
Elfyn,
Sorry we wern't able to meet; I presume that you were away and didn't get my message. We will now have to find some other way to return the file of manuals, at our mutual convenience.
I am once again having major car problems - I was probably correct last year in fearing that the problem was a cracked cylinder liner, and suspect now that last year's very expensive repair missed the real problem. Once sorted (and if I am still solvent by then!!), I will probably be coming over to Anglesey from time to time so could perhaps meet then.
Perhaps you could make contact; 0151-724-1127 or (if no answer there) 07754-523325.
Regards,
Oliver
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